Minato. Sage or Surreal?

Hey everyone,
I got this question from a math website that speaks to what I’m about to talk about today…

2, 4, 6, 2, 4, 6, 2, 4, 6, x, 4, 6

Question 1
x=what, in the number chain?
Are we seeing the pattern yet?

Are we seeing the pattern yet?

I was shocked a few days ago to find out that many readers didn’t think that Minato was a sage.  I thought this was just a given considering Kishi’s manga has always had generations repeat themselves with each surpassing the previous. As promised, I plan on taking a look at the subject in this post and seeing what the manga and the unspoken manga, put together has to say about it.  I knew that finding definitive proof would be tough because so little has been shown about Minato in the manga but what has been shown are all common features among the three.  Looks, personality, Rasengan and the pact with the frogs all run parallel with each other but we have yet to see proof of Minato being a sage… or have we?  Lets take a look at a couple manga panels.

If it walks like a duck...

If it walks like a duck...

The first thing we have to do is apply a scientific perspective to this subject by applying the same thought process behind the discovery of Black Holes or Dark Matter.  In both these situations a Black Hole had yet to be observed nor had Dark Matter been seen but yet both were cited as fact by using what we know to be true happening around the anomolies and using the most logical and simple to explain it.  Later both of these were eventual proven when scientists were finally able to view the phenomena.  So you need to take what we know about the surrounding facts in the manga and explain it with the most obvious answer.  Or to put it simply; if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck.

Above, I’ve posted all three characters pre what I call “Sage Coats”.  None of the three have displayed any Sage techniques at this point  and all three have already made pacts with the frogs from where the images have been taken in the manga. So we know for a fact that for what ever reason they began to wear their new coats is not related to making a pact with the frogs, other wise all three of them would have been wearing it by this point.  The same reasoning goes for Rasengen…

This is important because change in a characters appearance is very important in Manga.  There are only so many ways that you can draw a black and white character. So very often a manga character will wear the same clothes their entire manga lives, this is especially true with battle gear.  Same goes for the HAIR but that’s irrelevant to this discussion so I’ll save that for another time ^_^ The clothes, or battle gear, only changes when an achievement has occurred to a character, a new level of power.  It doesn’t necassarily change when they learn a new move but rather when they have an insane jump in power, maturity or responsibility.

So what happened between the above images and the images below if it wasn’t the pact with the frogs or Rasengan?

and quacks like a duck...

and quacks like a duck...

All three are wearing coats now…  Minato achieved a new level of power at some point prompting the gear change.  As we’ve discussed above, the change in appearance doesn’t change because of a new move like Flash Step or else we would have seen some form of change for Rasengan.  We can say that between the first set and second set of  images that Jiraiya achieved sage mode but it’s impossible to prove that it was directly after unless they showed some sort of flash back with him donning the new garb or arriving and someone mentioning it, neither of which will happen.  So we’ll just say the only fact that we know for sure, that he achieved Sage mode sometime for sure between the two sets.

If Jiraiya was the only example of the new garb and a time line of sage mode gear and I was making this argument 6 months ago I would say “well lets wait and see what happens to Naruto when he masters Sage mode”  that would allow someone to make an argument for or against the coat representing Sage mastery.  If Naruto had shown up having mastered Sage mode without a coat then it would have been easy to say that the gear has nothing to do with Sage mastery.  This wouldn’t have disproved Minato as a Sage considering the other consistent traits of the pact with the frogs and Rasengan, but it wouldn’t have helped.

It just so happens that he did show up with a coat so we can directly correlate Naruto’s new choice in attire to his mastery of Sage mode and we can then look at Jiraiya and say that his gear change happened with in a time frame of Sage Mastery even if you can’t lock down the exact time, it begins to start to look this way.  But another damning piece of evidence that Minato was a Sage is that Manga is nothing if not symbolic and this is not beyond Kishi…

then its a duck.

then its a duck.

Kishi loves the symbolism of the previous generation surpassing the previous and when he makes a direct comparison it should be noted… heavily noted.  Kishi didn’t make this symbolic comparison until Naruto had achieved sage mode.  He could have done it when he protected the village against Gaara and the One tail or when he learned Rasengan, but he didn’t.  It was when Naruto had returned as a Sage master that Kishi over layed the three.  Some times things don’t have to be said, we all just know it to be fact.  Black Holes exist, dark matter is real and Minato was a Sage.

This is my serious face... it's a f**kin duck...

This is my serious face... it's a f**kin duck...

Some reader contributions-

Ero Sennin: Minato and Jiraiya both have the flame jacket that Naruto just got after becoming a sage with the frogs marking his achievement…

Penny: the flames are not just represenative of the Will of Fire. It represents the Natural Energy flames a Sage must generate – aka, “Hakke.” Make note of the “flames” of the Natural Energy that Naruto induces when summoning Sage Technique.



P.S. I’d like to hear your thoughts in the comments section…but please try to stay on subject, I’ll forgive all the placement claims but beyond that you risk the mods deleting your comments @_@ I really want you guys to discuss whether Minato is a Sage or not.  Agree or disagree with the post, Either is fine with me ^_^ I look forward to the debate.


~ by 火影 千手 iareawesomeness on February 9, 2009.

213 Responses to “Minato. Sage or Surreal?”

  1. Can you hear it????


  2. second yay

  3. 2nd!!!! eh i dun think minato was a sage….. We don’t know if he ever used frogs >_>

  4. lol i think i posted the same time as you gsnp

  5. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 3rd…. i shud of used my commenting for a later post 😦 damnit coolbeans!!!!

  6. … Why you keep copying me?! 😛

  7. Good post! Though i’m still of the belief that Minato was to be trained as a sage, but prolly wasn’t because he died so young. I doubt naruto would have been put into the training this young had it not been necessary.

    The “Coat” could mean other things, Naruto could just be paying respects to Jiraiya. Also Jiraiya’s “coat” doesn’t really seem to be the same as the ones Minato and Naruto are shown wearing.

    About Minato’s coat, i always assumed he began wearing it when he became hokage (which falls in with increase in maturity/responsibility u mentioned). Naruto’s coat could be an increase in maturity/responsibilty as opposed to becoming a sage.

    Jiraiya could have started wearing his “coat” when he was given the title of Sannin.

  8. amazing post, great use of pictures….. i like pikaters *smillies way to wide*
    minato is totally a sage, the only question i have (but still on the fence about) is it seems like most sages have face markings, i know thats not a primary indicator ie. kiba and is family amoung others. however, j-man t-girl and oro-weirdo all have some markings on their face. they did before hand but like u said symbolism is nearly law in anime….. maybe it shows potential to become one??? idk just tossing that in the air.

  9. I was leaning towards Minato being a Sage, but couldn’t quite make the jump. You’ve pushed me over to the “Sage” camp. Now we can say that Konoha has completed its Sage Trifecta. Will Konohamuru now follow in Naruto’s steps?

    As always, great post Jeremiah.

  10. @ bendercu – good thoughts. The age is irrelavent though because Naruto is currently younger than Minato. Minato would have had more time than Naruto.

  11. I can answer this one easily.
    We can speculate weather Minato is a sage or not.
    But ultimately there is no specific evidence suggesting Minato is a sage.
    So the answer is OBVIOUSLY “We dont know yet” >_> duh
    Its like wondering if Zabuza ever learned a Water shark bomb….we dont know.

    BTW whats with the new cloths = new power stuff?
    Thats true sometimes….
    But other times not so much.
    example (only in Naruto)
    Hokage funeral.
    And if the reference is towards battle outfits…
    ..changes outfits a few times. Within the Anime/Manga without power up’s….

  12. crazy girls always changing outfits when its not needed lol jk no hate mail plz

  13. outfit changes very frequently happen in anime movies, although i think its only to seperate that its a different outlet not related very much to the story. or that its a different location ext. wait damn this is totally useless info then 😦

  14. @Schy
    Off the top of my head, I can only think of once that Sakura made any significant change outfits, in the manga. That was after the time skip. Virtually all the rookie nine had “changed” clothes, including Naruto. Sakura did cut her hair during the Chuunin exams, but that also represented a major change in her character. If your talking about the anime and/or movies, that’s comparing apples and oranges. As Jeremiah has often admonished, “if it’s not in the Manga, it’s not relevant.”

  15. @jeremiah very nice post ^_^

    couldnt minato have gotten the coat when he became hokage though? there just isnt enough evidence behind everything yet.

  16. @ Schy – Not correct. No idea what you are talking about… does that happen in filler or something? She’s only had two outfits and it is devided by a time skip to show progress. The only time she’s changed at all is when she cut her hair which was proportionate to her change in attitude and responsibility she put on herself to get stronger… so it stays true.

    @ Renzy – there is traditional Hokage gear and thats not it. Tsunade even wears the hat when she first becomes Hokage.

  17. @ jdb44 – sorry, I totally replied to Schy before reading ur post which said everything I just said but you said it first -_-

    Nice job

    I appoint you as the defender of my theory while I’m at work today. ^_^

    I’m guessing Alec will be bringing hell fire sometime tonight…

  18. I’m here and fashionably late! 🙂

  19. Read the P.S. at the end of the post again…

    *tugs on right ear lobe and points a supertrek*

    *ninja jumps to ready position*

  20. Quickly before I go to practice I don’t know if Minato was a sage or not but as soon as I’m free I’m doing some research back in the manga and givin my opinion. 0_0

  21. No im not referring to the movies.
    And yeah true if its not in the manga its not relevant. (at least on this blog)
    Anyways to do with Sakura…
    I was thinking about the cutting hair….
    Well i’ll explain.
    Sakura started off with a outfit….(of course unfortunately ^.^)

    Sakura did change her clothes during the chunnin exam arc-not by much, but a clothes change none the less. However the clothes change came before the Kunai-hair cut. So it didn’t “come with” a power up. The power up didn’t “prompting a gear change” (or prompt a gear change) either. (In fact its more the gear change prompt a power up)

    She went back to her original outfit during the leaf destruction arc. Its not new or much, but its a gear change none the less…and with that change the only powers she gained was to survive getting pushed aside like an insect by Garra.

    Next is the Hokage funeral…she had black…like everyone else….no new powers prompting the gear change.

    I can go on to shippuden/TS….but i wont torture you. I can think of 2 outfits after the TS. And of course other characters besides Sakura.

    Quote coolbeans1~”no hate mail”. Quote Jeremiah ~”Agree or disagree with the post. Either is fine by me ^_^” This leads to my summary. I dont disagree with the post…O_O it was just slightly inaccurate around that area-not all power up’s prompt gear changes. But i hope people dont interpret my comment the wrong way If coolbeans1 was referring to me with “no hate mail” sorry, i wasn’t trying to come across that way.

    As you can probably tell i pay special attention to what Sakura wears 🙂 Joke lol My comments probably as boring as hell “CLOTHES” O_O i thought i’d liven it up a bit with some lame jokes throughout. ^_^

  22. When Naruto is compared to Minato there is still one glaring difference in my mind. It’s that Minato had his space-time jitsu.

    I think Naruto is going to learn something similar with his shadow clones. It’s always something similar but ‘Naruto style’.

  23. Sometimes quacking, when heard through the duck blind sounds like the real thing, but it’s just another hunter behind another blind.

    This is a good theory, but it is nowhere near proven. It also can’t be falsified the way it currently stands, so I’m going to set up some strawman null hypotheses for you and see what we come up with. (Hey, you brought up that bitch science…let’s just exploit her until the deductive reasoning gives out…)

    I want to believe it’s true, but want another chunk of evidence first. Barring that, I want to safely eliminate all other plausible explanations.

    If Minato was a sage, I wonder why the frogs (or anyone else) have never mentioned Minato as sage outright? Is the panel of the three about sage mode or something else (e.g.: DN freekin A)? Is the coat a sign of maturity or sage powers? If it’s all sage, then why would Jiraiya’s be so different from the other two? These are the questions to non-believers should be asking and attempting to answer…a plausible counter theory and horse race is the only way to argue in this non-falsifiable realm.

    @bendercu: I doubt the coat was taken by Jiraiya after becoming Sannin. That label wasn’t really anything for any of them to be proud of at the time. They were named out of scorn and the meaning of it evolved for the rest of us.

  24. First, I’m on the fence about sage Minato. I like the idea and it seems like a very reasonable conclusion to draw, but animatronic bird replicas with nice speakers aren’t ducks, and I can’t get close enough to this particular specimen to chop it in half looking for sparks.

    Regarding the superimposed J-man-Minato-Naruto pic, I like Ibiki’s comment about DN expletive A…which raises a question I posed earlier, but maybe responses got lost in the flood of comments after I asked: Is there definitive proof that Jiraiya and Tsunade are the parents of Minato? Or, at least, that Jiraiya is Naruto’s perverted ancestor?

    @Jeremiah, HINATA FTW! That romance = way more interesting than Sakura. IMHO.

  25. I don’t think minato was a sage. Here are my reasons:
    1. As ibi stated, pa frog mentioned jiraiya a lot of times during naruto’s training but never did he mention anything about minato as being a sage.
    2. In 418 page 5, pa frog said to himself that naruto might have surpassed even jiraiya. If minato was a sage, he could have said, or added, that naruto equalled minato as being a sage.
    3. In 412 page 11, pa frog said that the sage art is not for everyone. It is for jiraiya and naruto ‘specifically’.
    Minato is indeed the strongest of the 3. Maybe that’s why he did not need to be a sage anymore.
    With the coat argument, minato wasn’t wearing the coat during the gaiden arc. So it was probably his signature kage coat.

  26. @saabonosuke: I feel I have to address the Jiraiya/Tsunade love affair, since that is partly my dastardly work. Yes, I presented a lengthy argument that Minato was their son. I also falsified it at the bottom of the post (Jiraiya flashes on her punching him and thinks ‘Tsunade turned me down every time’). If he and Tsunade ever did THAT jutsu…he doesn’t remember. I don’t think there’s enough sake or genjutsu in the world for him to forget that. BUT, Minato being Jiraiya’s relative…cannot be eliminated as a possibility on evidence so far.

    @Schy: you have pics or links for these outfits? I’m not quite seeing it, and still can’t be sure if we’re talking manga or anime or both…

    oh and @bono: meet you on the beach later, you perv, but bring a raincoat. I’d hate to have to lend you my shirt in the rain.

  27. @jeremiah, awesome quality post, love it.

    @ibi, awesome quality replies too!

    All I can think so far is that the fact the frogs haven’t talked about Minato is only consistent with every other character in the manga, and the only insight came with Tsunade and Jiraiya’s little reminisce on the bench, where incidentally Jiraiya said he’d never had a kid. So like Ibi said, that guy must have undergone some serious memory loss! Then again, he’s the only guy I’ve known to take a dynamic entry full on in the face… ^_^

    There have been plenty of opportunities for Kishi to enlighten us on Minato’s past and he never has, and now still isn’t the time by the looks of things, so I would say I’m sitting in the sage camp right now, and it feels pretty comfortable too. I’m just gonna wait for Kishi to blow my mind with this whole back story, he’s held onto it for so long you know it’s got to be good!

  28. Nice try Jeremiah, but science also has left the possibility of a white hole which has yet to be discovered by any means possible. If it walks like a duck, it could be a 3D animation, or a robot performing a simple task. And if it sounds like a duck it could be a hunter waiting to blow your freakin’ head off with a twelve gauge shotgun, and have Sparky drag you home. Then he plucks your feathers throw’s you over a fire and you become that nights dinner. Later the next day you end up being flushed down a toilet so be careful with the duck argument.

    Yes Kishi brings up tradition and symbolism and loves repeating generation to generation, but it gets old. I am not a believer in Minato being a sage and I will not be happy if it becomes explained in the manga if he was. That’s just too much of a repeat for me. I’ll explain more when i finish my damn homework… See ibi some students actually do their homework before play time *points at Jeremiah*

  29. @ bono: damn….you pop out of nowhere (remember I have been reading this for a while…I just didn’t feel like signing in lol)

    @ jeremiah: see I never could have confirmed the similarity between Minato and Jiraiya, until you showed me that picture…

    OMFG maybe he is the bastard child of Jiraiya after a long hot day of “research”.

    Just sayin

  30. @ the topic about clothes

    sasuke changed his outfit many times
    Black=when he learned chidori
    Oro outfit=learned many things new
    akatsuke=mangyekko sharingan

    ps. sasuke coolest is the akatsuki

  31. Does tsunade cape mean anything
    is she a slug sage lol

  32. @ultimate sharingan: is that in support or against Jeremiah’s use of the cloak…because I can see that being a support. Each of Sasuke’s wardrobe changes centered around a move toward more power. He changed when Kakashi sealed him and started teaching the chidori, he changed when studying with Oro and changed again after joining Akatsuki (although his own clothes were underneath…huh…symbolic? ya think?) I can also see it argued that the clothes change to show his maturity, not his relative power, at each of those stages.

    @Alec: looking forward to your replies. Homework…heh heh heh…crap. Why did you have to remind me?!

  33. Agree

    Once again you did a fine job. You have pretty much made me admit defeat. Now that I think about it more, and with seeing the panels, I will quietly accept a loss here. I have no reason to refute, and doing so would be pointless imo. Minato being a sage is about 90% confirmed to me. Wish i could see him in sage mode.

  34. @ajd: yes, a pic of him in sage mode or merged with the frogs (wait, is this the innuendo page?!) would tip the evidence.

  35. @jeremiah Great post dude^^ i am totally high as usual so… First of all i disagree that minato was a sage,u take as an evidence the caotts and i think tha minato the times we seen him wearing a coat is at the fight with the kyuuby and that coat was the hokage one.. minato isnt shown anywhere else in the manga(and i dont mean the pictures comparing him to naruto but in a story) exept the gaiden that he is a jounin.. Dude think about it… Yondaime hokage rasengan body flicker and sage mode…. i mean cmon thats an entire army… if minato was a sage thats fucking fake i mean cmoooonnn
    3rd hokage says:”ok guyz we have the 6 great countries..”
    An other person says:”but hokage sama there are only 5″
    3rd says:” No dude fire wind lightning eearth water and minato”
    He would be so freaking strong like a god…
    And about that generation and staff.. i dont think kishi thinks about it that much… I mean he easily could be a user of this site and change the story of naruto woth the ideas of other users.. So if the most ppl want minato to be a sage thats not doficult to be made. (if it sells)… Another reason For minato not to be a sage???? Naruto has to surpass him… I think everyone agrees that naruto has to surpass the previous generatioon… If minato is a sage also.. WTF naruto must learn to surpass himm?? maybe A KILL NO JUTSU that instantly kills the enemy??? naruto uses Jirayas teknik (sagee mode) and maybe minato”s (body flicker) so that the combination of them be deadly…Yes minato is strong ,, Yes jjiraya is strong But naruto must be even stronger… and with those two powers combined achieves it…

  36. I NEED more background on Minato. Just why don’t the frogs mention him, and if he wasn’t a sage, then give us SOME information of why he didn’t become. Maybe i’m 70% convinced, because he had to have developed rasengan after the war, which took years, and how did he have time for Kushina?

  37. @punxed, Minato = country, lol!

    Also, I think I just felt a little lump in my mattress with your Naruto having ridiculous powers argument, things would be getting a little out of control with all that going on. But if it does happen, hopefully Kishi will balance it well with the usual ‘cost of power’ theme.

  38. @Jeremiah- Just got back from taking my little one to T-ball practice. I like the appointment and will do my best to hold the fort til you get back.

    @Schy- Your Sakura arguments are pretty flimsy. Keep in mind that when drawing a black and white manga the author is limited on what they can do to differentiate the characters. Once the artist/author has a defined a look for each character, he doesn’t want to change that look for fear of making it difficult for the reader to follow the story. Hence, characters don’t change often, and it’s usually because of a significant change in that individual. Your going to have to show the specific changes that your talking about in the manga.

    The funeral argument is a strawman. As you stated, everyone “dressed” for the Hokage’s funeral. It does, in a different way, follow the “Clothes” theory. The 3rd’s funeral marked a significant event for everyone in the village.

    @Ibi – Liked the analogy, but a theory is called a theory because it hasn’t been proved. =-) Your DNA argument begs the same question that you contemplate for the 3 sages, why hasn’t anyone ever mentioned it? As for the difference in coats, Errosenin has always been a tad different, right?

    @saabonosuke- In his conversation with Tsunade, before heading to his demise, jiraiya stated that he had never had kids. (As droptheweights noted before this reply was finished… good job)

    @nier24 – 1. Naruto was Jiraiya’s protege, everything leading up to the Sage training was about Jiraiya and Naruto. There were many “stone” frogs in Myobokuzan, which means many tried Sage training and failed. Why would Minato have signed a contract with the frogs and not trained in sage arts. Especially given that we know more than just Jiraiya and Naruto made the attempt. 2. See above, this story line was also about Naruto and Jiraiya’s relationship, Minato wasn’t a part of it in any way. 3. Jeremiah…hhhelllpp!

    @Alec – Look forward to your replies. I for one will be quite satisfied when Kishi writes this theory into canon.

    @sharinganeyes- Thanks for the supporting documentation, as Ibiki pointed out, it cuts both ways. Sasugy = emo little girl

  39. does anyone even know when j-man became a sage he might have became one while he was traveling and minato was hokage already

  40. @ajd, yeh, never mind the frogs, you would have thought Jiraiya would be the best candidate to tell Naruto about Minato considering he thought of him as a grandchild, and god knows he had plenty of opportunity to! Then there’s Kakashi, Sarutobi and all the others who’ve been close to him down the years, but no one has! And if there’s some sinister reason behind all this or something in the knowledge of it that might hurt Naruto or make him vulnerable, then why wouldn’t Orochimaru or someone try to use it against him?

    Definitely being held back for a reason, I can’t think why, but I can’t wait to find out!

  41. @droptheweights- Jiraiya didn’t tell Naruto that Minato was his father, why would he tell him about being a sage?

  42. maybe naruto knows who his father his but doesnt like to talk about it like kakashi

  43. Man, everytime I refresh there’s three more comments. gggoott ttoooo tttyyypppeeee fffaaaassttteerr.

    @Punxed- Sorry I missed your post. LOL When Kishi finishes Naruto, Someone is gonna’ say, “There’s five countries, and they’re all just sitting on top Planet Uzamaki.”

  44. Well Minato would HAVE to be a sage in Kakashi Gaiden.

    Kakashi was 13 then right? According to the Naruto Wikia, Kakashi was 26 when the series began. Naruto was 12 when the series began. Assuming that Naruto had the 9 tails sealed in him when he was under a year old, Minato would have to had died the year after Kakashi Gaiden occured. Now i know Naruto learned Sage training in a few months but Minato doesnt have the Kyuubis chakra.

    Now its still possible that Minato was a Sage but hed have to have already been one during Kakashi Gaiden.

  45. @Fanboi- He could have been training, but not yet actually become a Sage. Hmmm.

  46. For some reason my computer won’t post my long comment so I’ll try breaking it into two parts.

    Part 1.

    Alright, I have come to a conclusion…drum roll please…Minato WAS a sage! Here is my argument. I went over the other comments and would like to address nier24 for now specifically because he pointed out some really good links. To start off I believe the reason why Pa frog mentioned Jiraiya and not Minato during the training is because for some unbeknownst (that’s a real word) reason to us viewers Naruto is not to know Minato was his father. Pa frog is old enough and has been with Konoha long enough to know not to tell Naruto who his real father is. It is a well kept secret amongst the eldest and most elite ninjas. Moving along to your second point you pointed out this link where Pa frog only mentions Jiraiya http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/418/05/. The reason why Pa frog never compared Naruto to Minato as a sage is because Naruto’s nowhere near his level. He mentioned Jiraiya because Naruto surpassed him. With Minato’s Yellow Flash jutsu he was like a super sage! If Pa frog compared Naruto to Minato he would say something like, “….as for Naruto being on Minato’s level it ain’t happening in my life time.” It would be a waste of dialogue. 🙂

  47. if he was a sage he probaly would have been able to add element to rasengan

    the reason j-man never did because i dont think he tried

  48. Part 2.

    For the last and third point you made as I said above he didn’t mention Minato’s name because he didn’t want to chance Naruto finding out who his real father was. I loved your link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/412/011/ where Pa frog says, “This is about you and Jiraiya specifically.” But if you just go to the next page of the same chapter http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/412/012/ Pa frog says, “Furthermore only those who are GUTSY and don’t give up can become sages.” Now who does that remind you of? Here’s a link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/416/01/. Is that Minato kicking A$$ and taking names? Furthermore being gutsy AND never giving up? I think that’s a giant clue of insight into Minato being a sage. (I don’t know if this will post or not because my computer feels like being an asshole right now!) 

  49. @ultimate sharingan- That’s thin.

  50. yea im just sayin crazy stuff now
    im listen to lil wayne that is probaly why

    kermit the frog = strongest sage eva

  51. @jdb44, apologies if I was unclear, I was saying how Jiraiya didn’t tell Naruto anything about his father and neither did anyone else, so the fact no one said he was a sage is consistent, therefore it leaves the possibility of him being a sage wide open imo.

    I just ran with that and ended up wondering why no one has said anything tho.

  52. I do make that clear up above tho! I should learn to use things like ‘as I’ve said’ more I guess

  53. does anybody know why sasukes m-sharingan looks different than kakashi’s and itachi’s

  54. actually why does every ones mangyeko sharingan look different

  55. @Fanboi (and ajd), with the time-line inconsistencies, I think that could be got around because it’s not as though Minato couldn’t have been fitting training around missions etc, there was a war going on you know! lol. The Rasengan was probably developed as and when he had the chance along with all the perfecting of sage techniques.
    And as for not being able to use clones to learn to do things fast, that guy invented used a space-time jutsu, so I’m sure he did everything fast! (small thought spared for Kushina there, I bet her whirlpool country was never fully satisfied…)

  56. He could have been a sage, I don’t really know, and I’ve been proven wrong so many times already.

  57. I’m still on the fence with the idea of Minato being a sage, because for as good as your argument is, Jeremiah, I think the comments about why it might not be plausible deserve equal merit, too …

    I’d like to throw out a thought about why Naruto and Minato’s sage coats don’t look like Jiraiya’s: What if the sage coats look similar for families? (In the same way that facial features, etc. get passed down.) That would explain why Naruto and Minato’s coats are so alike, yet Jiraiya’s is different. I also wonder about whether or not the scroll has anything to do with sage powers. Did Minato have a scroll strapped to his back, too? I can’t remember and am too lazy to go back and check right now.

  58. Whoops, I take back my third point where I said Minato was being portrayed as the gutsy ninja that never gives up here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/416/01/. Before anyone else points it out that is in fact ‘Nauto’ The main character portrayed in Jiraiya’s book ‘The Legend of the Gutsy Ninja’ http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/09/. But I still stick by my defense of Minato being a sage!!!

  59. I meant to say ‘Naruto’. They all look so damned alike I mean how many spikey haired ninjas can you have in one anime series? huh Kishi, HOW MANY! >_<

  60. @supertrek, as per usual, nicely done! I think if Kishi is just teasing us with this one then everyone is gonna have Giant Double Rasengan Blue Balls when the truth comes out!

  61. @elfarren- When you say, “I think the comments about why it might not be plausible deserve equal merit, too …” Do you mean they need someone to make another post, or do you mean those comments are not being taken seriously.?

    Good thought on the MiNaru Sage coats being alike. However, Naruto isn’t supposed to know that Minato is his Pappy.

    If memory serves, and my memory is slipping these days, there’s a picture of Minato on top of Gamabunto(?) and he has a scroll slung across his back.

  62. @droptheweights: Thanks alot even though I screwed up badly with the Minato being the ‘Gutsy Ninja’ thing but if this helps my point any in the second panel here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/11/ Jiraiya does say Minato had the fiercest guts and desire to succeed he’d ever seen. I believe those are the guts Pa frog was talking about needed to become a sage http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/412/012/! And for real though Minato does look A LOT like the ‘Naruto’ character in ‘The Legend of the Gutsy Ninja’ just look at him http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/416/01/. Maybe Jiraiya was highly influenced by Minato thus creating the character ‘Naruto’ for his book, which is the reason why the character resembles Minato so much. Thus making my third point valid again because Minato was the original influence for ‘The Gutsy Ninja’. Are you following me? lol. ?_?

  63. @jbd: “but a theory is called a theory because it hasn’t been proved” Sigh. *puts on serious face* Theories can’t be proven, they can only be falsified. And if they can’t be falsified, they eventually get considered the best explanation for that which cannot be explained in any other way. Now I could respond to your statements about Jiraiya’s connections with the other two…but that isn’t what this is about. Let’s put this puppy through a rigorous series of falsification tests. (Back off man, I’m a scientist! -Dr. Peter Venkman)

  64. at jbd44: LOL! LMAO! you might have convinced me with my first 2 reasons but could anyone contest my 3rd reason to get me converted to the other side of the fence? (keeping fingers crossed under the blanket)

  65. whooops! i meant ‘jdb44’. i got carried away by ibi’s message. sorry man.

  66. @ jdb: I meant the arguments against Minato being a sage were all thought provoking and good counters to Jeremiah’s post, not that they shouldn’t be taken seriously. Mostly I just didn’t want to repeat what everyone else has said, though looking back I probably should have clarified what I meant more clearly. L And it’s true that Naruto doesn’t know Minato is his dad (yet), but him having a similar sage coat doesn’t have anything to do with whether Naruto knows that or not … in the same way that parents pass on hair and eye color, I was only trying to point out that perhaps the sage coats are similar in that they look alike for people of the same lineage. Of course, I’m talking completely out of my a$$ right now, but that’s half the fun, right? ^_^

  67. @Ibiki

    Ibiki- I stand corrected. Indeed, let’s call this a discussion about Jeremiah’s “hypothosis”, which postulates that the three aforementioned ninjas were also sages. Then, through further observation and “experimentation” it can either be proved or refuted.

    I’ll follow your lead, for now, on the Jiraiya connections.

    (“Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!” -also Dr. Peter Venkman)

    @Nier24- I haven’t forgotten about #3. Still cogitating my rebuttal… ummm … refutation(see above).

  68. @ Ibi – I’m going to say right now that Minato was a sage and the burden of proof falls on the prosecution to prove otherwise.

    Sage until proven guilty…

    Also I’m winning the ballot voting at 71%! I’m the Obama of this debate!


  69. jeremiah being compared to obama??? hmmmmm. how could that end????

  70. @elfarren-

    I actually understood your question as you meant it, just was poking a little fun at it(since I am arguing the other side of the fence).

    On the Sage coat, as indicated, I liked the idea. It just begs some questions…. Who gave it to Naruto? Where did they get it? Why didn’t they tell him his lineage when they presented the coat?

    As for talking out of one’s, Tuchas(See Ibiki for Source). I may have been doing that when stating that there’s a panel with Minato standing on ‘Bunta and carrying a scroll. I see it in my minds eye, but it’s fuzzy.

  71. Jeremiah great post, I to believe that Minato was a Sage. He was Jiraiya’s student, had a pact with the frogs and had the cape as does Naruto. Also killer evidence with the new generation surpassing the previous at their particular shinobi skill, which for Naruto would be Sage mode.

    However there is also the possibilty that Minato like you had mentioned received his coat for a high level promotion. We can all agree that becoming Hokage is a pretty big promotion. I would say that deserves a change of clothing.

    Also let’s consider that the 3rd who came before Minato also had a cloak. It is not all that far fetched that Minato like his predecessor chose a cape for his promotion to Hokage.

    I still believe deep down Minato was a sage, it just makes sense with the stroyline. The above post was just food for thought for all of us ponder. Hokage coat or Sage coat?

  72. Sorry for any grammatical errors I did not proof read.

  73. @jdb: DAMMIT! How the hell did my tuchas end up in the middle of one of Jeremiah’s posts…AGAIN!

    @Jeremiah: OK, Burden of proof…mumble…law is not science, it wasn’t Judge Peter Venkman…these things take time, man, and I’m distracted by the innuendo discussion…because between theory and innuendo, I’d always rather think about teh_sex. And…science is not a prostitute, she cannot be bought with gold and cheap gifts and promises of hope, theories are not elected by democratic vote! (ok, they kind of are, but it’s supposed to be a secret…) OK, ok, counter theory and further evidence on its way…where the hell is Alec?

  74. Alec already checked in, look waaaay up there…

    The No vote on this theory post is a losing effort, give up now before we bury you…


  75. lol. i love landslide polls, but i feel sorry for people on the losing end of them -_- … wait no i dont!!!! its their fault for voting against us!!!!!! fear the power of awesomeness!!!!!!

    oh.. great post by the way jeremiah!

  76. ninja for hire.
    will work for sushi and/or a konoha headband.
    works well with weed and Patrick Swazye.
    Please provide ninja weapons since my mom took all mine away.
    Payment preferable on arrival.

  77. @ redshota. ill hire you.
    payment: konoha headband AND sushi
    your first mission is to assassinate username “Schy”
    location: “England”
    threat level : “S”
    main weapons: unknown
    known weaknesses: “tea and crumpets”

    did i mention you get all the weed you can smoke? (or whatever you do with it) you be so high you’ll think you see the swayze so it works out fine ^_^
    payment on deliver of the targets head

  78. @ nier24 – I’m going to address your comment part 3 tomorrow which is by far the most solid. Great find…

    Going to bed…

  79. I could post links if i dont get moderated >_>
    Anyway i think im coming across as “SCHY completely disagree’s with the post” which isnt true. IT REALY ISNT its a good post. I just thought that clothes topic was SLIGHTLY inaccurate. Because its not always the case. And many times it is~as was pointed out Sasuke-and many others. But its a topic that really holds a “its no big deal”. ( I really dont want to type about clothes 0_O)

  80. Im still not convinced. No one mention anything about what Minato was like during his Sage Mode. I mean Naruto was compared only to Jiraiya when he was still acquiring Sage mode. And besides, Minato is a once-in-a-lifetime genius, how can he not master the sage mode? and if indeed Minato was a sage, i think its still impossible for naruto to surpass him. Dont hate me, just an opinion

  81. physics new rule, any thing can happen at any time for no reason.


    lol but really this duck seems to be a duck minito a sage and j-man narutos g-pa……OR A CRAZY 18 FOOT TALL MACHANICAL DUCK THATS NUCLEAR POWERED AND SHOOTS LAZER HEADS FROM ITS EYES AND APPEARS ON THE OTHERSIDE OF THE UNIVERSE ENTANGLED WITH ITSELF SOMEHOW….. did i just say “shoots lazer heads”…. yep seems to be the case….. guess it must be time for bed im not making much sence

  82. @ schy – show us an example in Naruto then in which the clothes aren’t a sign of change… whether you want to talk about or not depends on which thread you go to BUT if you are going to say it doesn’t matter then you should give examples where it doesn’t. Because you have only given us examples where it has.

  83. @ jeremiah: thanks! I agree. It may not be difinitive but it’s a strong evidence which the jury should consider before finalizing their votes, so to speak. I rest my case. (does the shino pose)

  84. First off, reread the gaiden, minato defeats 50 opposing ninjas with assistance from four others who were only throwing knives. His technique isn’t a flash step that uses a distraction to make your opponent lose focus, he actually moves close to the speed of light because of the summoning tags. He also defeats the other ninja attacking kakashi after obito “dies”. He doesn’t need to be a sage, he created rasengan, had the flash step and also could use the death god seal, that doesn’t sound like he ever used sage mode. When Jiraya and Tsunade are talking, Jiraya mentions that the fourth has amazing power, genius, and speed that is only found once in a generation or two, that doesn’t mean he had to be a sage. In fact the whole point of the super hero flash is that he moves ridiculosly fast and doesn’t need to do anything else. Imagine if someone almost as smart as shiki or kakashi could move at the speed of light when fighting enemies, they wouldn’t need anything else to utterly destroy their enemies. And jsut because minato could summon the frogs doesn’t mean he ever learned sage, why would he have needed it? The way minato fights it would be counter intuitive to have to sit still for any period of time. What would he need to do with it anyway? Cause i highly doubt he could have moved much faster than he already has and even if he could he is already the fastest ninja (well we don’t know about madara yet) so going faster is like adding extra rockets to an SSR 71 Black bird in a snail race, you don’t need it. Not to mention, if kishi likes repeating things so much, why is it that Naruto fights like his mom and is named after his mom? if anything he only looks like his dad, but he is totally his mom’s kid.

    Plus you’re only enjoying the fact that your communist mind has infiltrated the youthful minds of the world and basically mentally raped them with a crappy thought process based on nothing more than your own beliefs and incredibly circumstansial evidence based upon flawed arguments. Congratulations you have managed to brainwash just about everybody who has only ready half the manga with half an interest in what is actually going on and don’t half care to recheck upon things for themselves. But if it helps, i still love ya big guy…

  85. @jeremiah: I wasn’t referring to your last comment. My bad. I am cooking breakfast while typing in my iPhone so it was sent a little too late.

  86. @ Everyone – I’m going to address some of the stuff said above…

    “It’s hokage gear” – no it’s not. We all read the manga and we all know what the traditional hokage gear looks like and thats not it. It looks much more like what Naruto is wearing with the flames on it and so on… Naruto is not hokage and Minato was not wearing this because he was either.

    “Jiraiya is wearing Sannin gear” – no he’s not. If that were true then both Tsunade and Oro would wear one. Tsunade yes, Oro no… that’s why Sage coat theory works. Everything is yes across the board. Not so with the Sannin coat theory. Also the legendary Sanin was a nickname given to them, it not an actual title, they are legends… we all know that story.

    “Not anyone can do this training, this is about you and Jiraiya specifically.” – this was the best find by far against “Minato is a sage” and was found by nier24. I’ll bring up two things in response…

    1) Kishi stays away from discussing th 4th like its a plague around Naruto. For some reason which is yet to be revealed Naruto is unaware of his heritage. If Pa frog included the 4th then even an idiot’s bell would start to go off. Remember this because Kishi will eventually let Naruto in on the secret and we are going to get one hell of a flashback at that point.

    That’s when Kishi will make Naruto out to be exactly like the fourth… cause that’s what kishi has done and always will do.

    2) Someone email me the Raw of this page, I want to take a look at it.


    Nice job nier24…

  87. which part of this is supposed to suprise me? -.-

  88. @ Alec – if anything that you said didn’t completely reinforce my theory I’d be worried. Why would he need Sage mode if he could flash step?!

    That’s like asking Jordan why he developed a jumper when he could dunk like no other. When you are the best, you are good at everything. That’s why you are the best, cause you are not a one trick pony.

    Also consider that he might have been able to flash step because he could channel natural energy. You also point out that he was insanely powerful, which was one of Pa frogs requirements. Jiraiya and Naruto are idiots and needed training to learn this and almost turned into frogs several times. As you say, Minato was a genius and invented Rasengan. Well if he’s a genius and insanely strong then he probably doesn’t resemble a frog at all when channeling sage chakra. They resemble frogs because they have trouble controlling the energy. Which I doubt the nin you just described would have that same problem. Thanks for reinforcing my points.

    As to the Kushina reference I’ll just yield to the manga which points out that he has her eyes and everything else reminds Tsunade and Jiraiya of Minato.

    Jeremiah FTW

    P.S. Thanks for throwing that extra stuff in there, I’m pretty sure that u just brought Ibi over to my side based on principal. ^_^

    @ allschoolrejects – which comment are you referring to? Is someone above claiming to have surprising info? Or are you just commenting on the fact that you think Minato is a Sage and shouldn’t surprise anyone…

  89. @jeremiah: I have to disagree with your 3rd paragraph. It’s true that minato was a genius and insanely strong but he hasn’t been shown with frogs on his shoulders. That also applies when he used the flash step. Remember what pa frog told naruto that it is impossible to use sage tech in battle without them infusing with the person. So by deductive logic, naruto is the first to use sage tech without the frogs’ infusion.

  90. @nier24 the only reason you need to fuse with the frogs to fight in sage mode is so they can gather natural energy for you. otherwise you need to stay still and gether it yourself, which in battle is a bad idea. the frogs are only there so the user can stay in sage mode, which naruto has found a way around using his clones.

  91. @renzy: you’re absolutely right! That was what I meant when I said “in battle”.
    We first saw minato during his battle with the 9-tails, as I assume when he was standing on top of bunta, in front of the 9-tails. Then we also saw him did the flash step in gaiden. But he was never with frogs on his shoulders in both situations.

  92. @Alec- Your comment puts virtually all emphasis on speed, as if it is the only thing that Sage Arts provide. It isn’t, and I would argue that isn’t even the most important thing. Sennin mode is like having a second Chakra reservoir. Instead of drawing energy from the Chakra within your body, it draws energy from everything outside. For Naruto, this will ultimately be like having three reservoirs of energy, that might be how he will surpass Minato. Sage mode provides Awesome physical strength, stamina, and has allowed Naruto to sense chakra.

    When Jiraiya and Tsunade were discussing Minato’s power, I interpreted that as his overall power, not physical strength. As a warrior with outrageous speed, how tempting would it have been for Minato to couple flash step with the Super Human human strength and chakra sensing of Sage mode? Damn near impossible for Minato to pass up, I would surmise. Pa Frog said that Naruto would only have five minutes of Sage mode without his clones gathering natural energy. Minato, with his Yellow flash would only need a fraction of that time. Remember, just getting to a target quickly is only half the battle, then you have to damage or kill the target. Sage mode would come in awfully handy once the target is confronted.

    BTW, If I disagree with Jeremiah on a point, I’ll argue against him. This hypothosis [Not a theory, Ibiki =-)] happens to be one with which I agree.

    @Jeremiah- Tsunade said that if she had to choose, Naruto is much more like his Mother. They actually said Naruto looked like his Father, but his personality and ninjutsu style was exactly like Kushina’s.

    @nier24 – renzy10 is absoulutely right. As stated above, Pa Frog said that once you’ve gathered natural energy(without fusion), you’ve only got five minutes of Sage mode. Five minutes of Sage mode + Yellow Flash = Oh Sh!t, we’re F@#$%d!

  93. Baka
    Dude i was referring to something different.
    But ya know what?
    Srew it.
    Im going to be the only mature one and end this. Because nobody wants to read this.
    And thats what i was actually referring to-me typing about this “doesn’t matter” its uninteresting.
    So “i dont want to talk about this” meaning *now* im just going to ignore replies on this subject.
    And i’ll even type what you want see for all i care “your 100% right im being a douche” satisfied now 0_o Just pretend im being serious for the 1st time on the net and be happy. >_> (anything to end this nonsense)

  94. We all assume that he was in sage mode in that little clip we’ve seen of his battle with the 9 tails. This could be the last 5 minutes of the fight where he’s using his last resort, the sealing tech, which obviously doesn’t use sage otherwise the 3rd wouldn’t have been able to use it.

    My guess is that Kishi didn’t even come up with sage mode until he gave it to Jiraiya as like a super sayin mode above and beyond summoning the frogs. Knowing this I’m positive that when/if he looks back on Minato he will write it into his character so as to complete the connection between the 3.

    This debate would be easier if this really happened but instead we have to wait for Kishi to write it, so there really is no wrong answer until he writes it. So I’m really taking what I know about Kishi’s writing style and patterns an applying it to Minato. Because that’s how Kishi writes and those are the patterns he establishes and follows.

  95. @jdb44: granted that he went on sage mode when he used the flash step, although we saw his eyes were as normal as they could possibly get and without the dark pigmentation around the eyes as a sign of being in sage mode, but how about during his battle with the 9-tails that lasted more than 5 minutes? Wouldn’t that be the best time that we see him in sage mode?

  96. @jeremiah: very well stated. Indeed. I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, I guess. Because I’m not really the type of person who would leave comments on a post. Hey! I’ve been reading your blog for centuries but never really thought of commenting.

  97. @nier24- Point taken. I think Ma Frog had just cooked dinner when Kyuubi arrived, she wouldn’t let Pa Frog come play with Minato, ’til he cleaned his plate. 😉

    Just a thought; Minato Knew how powerful Kyuubi was, and figured he would get only one shot at defeating his enemy. He chose the ninjutsu that would provide the best odds of winning. It ended up being Death God Demon Seal not Sage mode. Hence, no need for risking Ma and Pa’s lives by fusing to gather natural energy.

  98. @jdb44: perhaps. ^_^ that would be my wife’s reaction as well if I was in pa frog’s situation. LOL.
    Regarding your thought, you may be right and I am wrong, or the other way around, but only kishi knows. Darn that kishi! He makes us debate based mainly on presumptions! ^_^

  99. @nier24 – Your right about Kishi and how all of our theories could be wrong. I was just trying to provide a logical reason why, in a battle lasting more than five minutes, Minato might not have gone Fusion Sage on Kyuubi.

  100. @jdb44: I would rather go with Jeremiah’s theory that kishi hasn’t thought of the sage tech until jiraiya needed a powerful jutsu. With that said, minato wasn’t really a sage when he fought the 9-tails. I wasn’t talking about the naruto history but kishi’s idea or way of thinking at that time.

  101. @nier24: ‘The legend of the Gutsy Ninja’ that’s all the definitve proof I need to believe Minto was a sage. First let me show you the first panel of this link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/412/012/. Now take a look at this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/416/01/. I know the charcter in Jiraiya’s book wasn’t exactly Minato but I believe the influence for the character was definitely Minato. Just look at the uncanny resemblence of the character in Jiraiya’s book and any picture of Minato. Further proof of Minato being the main influence for the protagonist in Jiraiya’s book is this link here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/11/. Where Jiraiya says in the second panel, “…his guts and desire to succeed were the fiercest I’d ever seen.” Which is the reason why Minato was the main influence for Jiraiya’s protagonist in ‘The Legend of the Gutsy Ninja.’ Thus Kishi is pointing out that Minato had the GUTS and will TO NEVER GIVE UP to become a sage!

  102. Minato was definitely a sage!

  103. i dunno i kinda just assumed minato was a sage when i saw him on top of the frog

  104. “Get off the frog and come out with your hands up…” (Sorry, I couldn’t resist…)

    I’m still working up a response to this…but Jeremiah’s got me slaving away on a bunch of other crap. I think he just wants to distract me so I can’t put together anything coherent. >.< It’s actually going to cap off the evidence both ways, so don’t expect it to all be against the theory (Alec, I must abandon you…just on principal…lol, jk). Now, if everyone would just go away and stop clicking pages for a second I might be able to get that other little project done well AND on time…

  105. @ibi: actually, there is no evidence that he was a sage. They were purely speculations (whoops… I forgot I’m in a theory post). There was never a picture of him in sage mode (dark pigmentation around the eyes which is the definite mark of a sage) nor a word about him being a sage (yeah I know. His life is a big secret). So basing on the present facts, he was not a sage until kishi writes that he was.
    Sorry guys. Just couldn’t stop my fingers. Idle fingers…I guess.

  106. @supertrek: true. But that still doesn’t prove that he was a sage. Maybe he was destined to be but because of his untimely death he wasn’t able to become one.

  107. @Jerimiah

    I am not as smart as Harshy but a theory is not accepted as proven until it yields an expected result 100% of the time. With that said as much as I agree with you. Just the .01% probability that his outfit upgrade was for acquiring the position of Hokage disproves the theory. We need 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt proof that he got his upgrade for becoming a Sage. Otherwise the argument is really just speculation.

  108. @edubkage: I disagree. Theories are used until there is a more accurate theory, with better predictability than the old one. Even a faulty theory is better than having no explanation, but it can’t be replaced until the next great idea is discovered.

  109. OK. So I combed back over some manga. Minato is one hell of a ghost.

    Some claim his name appears on the frog scroll, (chapter 92, page 18), and elsewhere on the net it’s said the kanji is completely illegible. Others say it lists a completely different name. Remember that at that time in the manga, Minato had only been called the 4th Hokage; his name was completely unknown.

    Chapter 96, page 11: Gamabunta admits no one has ridden on his head since the 4th and thinks Naruto’s summoning was actually Jiraiya.

    He pops up for the first time in Gaiden, (239 – 244) and is only identified as “The Yellow Flash of Konoha” by some of the other nins. Yet, we know by now that this shinobi is to be the 4th. Partly because of the faces on the mountainside, partly because of little portraits and flashes here and there. These little flashes are key, but good luck finding them all unless you’re reading over from the beginning. All though Gaiden we don’t know Minato’s name; he uses no frogs and he wears no coat except his flak vest.

    Chapter 339, page 14: during the Kakuzu battle, Kakashi flashes back to training Naruto…they put their rasengans ball to ball and Kakashi burnt the crap of out his hand. He turns around and sees Minato’s back…wearing a jacket…kanji down the back. Anyone know what it says? I don’t…but it might mean something, since our pics are so limited.

    Chapter 367, Tsunade and Jiraiya recover from their afternoon of sake on the bench and start to spill. For the first time we learn Minato’s name and learn Kushina’s name–they are identified as Naruto’s parents. No pictures. No mention of sage arts. Jiraiya admits to training Minato, but that’s it.

    Chapter 370, Jiraiya barfs out the frog key. Here’s the first canon proof that Minato and the frogs had something going on. Naruto’s seal, the Kyuubi’s yin/yang chakra separation, Minato’s use of Death God poker game jutsu is revealed. BUT, the key to the seal resides with a frog…and by the way they talk, the key wasn’t given to this frog belcause that’s what worked for Jiraiya. The key frog seems to have been chosen by Minato and then entrusted to Jiraiya (ch 370, pg 11, top left panel). Still no picture, still no sage mention, but frogs do seem to be implied.

    Chapter 382, Jiraiya’s flashback when he discovers Kushina’s pregnancy and the intention to name the baby Naruto. Jiraiya’s wearing his coat, but Minato is not, and no vest either.

    There is one pic similar to the one Jeremiah uses above, Minato in his coat, but serious face…can’t remember which issue. Same amount of detail–almost none.

    So…why do we have this firm picuture of Minato on the frog’s back? And Minato in a coat with flames? We all have that picture in our heads, I know…but where is it coming from?

    Well, I know one source would be the swirled images on page one of chapter 1. But everything there is just the idea of a man on a frog. This isn’t the picture I’ve got in my head. I’m wondering if this is the sort of thing, like Minato’s face on the mountain or portraits in the office, that is shown here and there throughout the series, or are there opening chapter pics that have planted the image in our heads. You’re not going to like what I say next…

    I know for a fact that the anime opens with Minato, in his coat on the frog’s back. This is the only place I can find the image. So…I know I’ve heard Jeremiah claim that if it’s not in the manga…it doesn’t count. @.@ Personally, I think that’s hardline, but I’d love to hear him admit to some canon bleed…

    Last…damn. I found this. Yeah, that’s Kakashi on the frog’s back. Does that mean he’s a sage, too? that he has frog summoning powers? I wouldn’t pushi it, except that the only images we also have of Minato supposedly doing this are just as ‘interstitial’ and from slides that show up between chapters.

    That’s the evidence. I hope someone else can find more pictures of him. I like the idea of him being a sage, but I just want more proof. Sage powers have never been connected with him, the shot in the anime of him fighting the 9 tails on Gamabunta’s head does not show the ultimate sage mode attack…what Jiraiya called Hermit Mode. Seems like it would be the right time for that, if he knew it.

    Kakashi Gaiden took place two years before Minato died (if I can trust that Kakashi was made jounin at 13–can anyone confirm this as coming from a source book?!) So, although he didn’t appear to be a sage at that point, he did have two years to learn some things. Maybe he didn’t learn it all. Maybe there just wasn’t time.

    Could the coat be about Naruto growing into his family heritage and maturing–and not a sign of his sage powers at all?

    I do know one thing for sure, Kishi will back fill this for us if we’re patient. And I think it is going to turn out the Minato was at least on his way to being a sage. But I also think the anime informs the manga and fills in little holey bits like this. Dang…sorry to go on so long. I do feel better being able to barf all that out someplace.

  110. I noticed that picture a few weeks ago when I was reading that very first manga, and as I read forward I saw that. I don’t think Kakashi on the toads head is a symbol for anything, as Sakura is in the coat, but what got me is Sasuke, leader of team hawk, brooding (what else) on the hawk. But, I’ll start patrolling for Minato references.

  111. I haven’t look far, and found this. I think it kinda punches at least a pinhole in the “if it’s not in the manga…it doesn’t count.”

  112. @Ibiki- Your frog key find is exceptional. I hate to admit this, but I saw that yesterday, while looking for Jiraiya and Tsunade’s conversation, and didn’t make the connection. Now that you’ve pointed it out, why haven’t you been moved toward the “Minato was a Sage” camp.

    Something did seem strange about the Jiraiya/Tsunade conversation in Chapter 367. When Tsunade mentions Uzumaki Kushina, Jiraiya acts as though Kushina was only a casual acquaintance, “That was her name!” Yet as you noted, they appeared to know each other, at least fairly well, based on the flashback in chapter 382. I know it doesn’t have anything to do with this post, but it put a wrinkle on my brain that won’t go away.

    @ EroSennin- As for the Kakashi on Bunta panel, you stole my thunder, and welcome back. There was (maybe) one other thing on that panel. If you look at the black swirl around Naruto, it looks eerily similar to Amaterasu… and it looks like Naruto’s scroll is drawing it in, while Gamabunta’s pipe is pushing it out.?

  113. @Ibiki: Damn, I’m still in the “Minato was a sage” camp but your post made me waver a bit. About your key example, I also came over that chapter when browsing through the manga and it popped some interesting questions in my mind. Here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/124/05/ we see the 3rd dragging out orochimaru’s soul with the Shiki Fuujin used http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/02/. In the bottom two panels of the first link I provided the 3rd says, “The one who is sealed and one who performed the seal. Their souls will mingle, hating each other and battle the other for all eternity…” Now here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/12/ we know the 4th only sealed the yin (dark side) of the Kyubi with the Shiji Fuukin and the Yang (light side) into Naruto. Does that mean the 4th and the Yin side of the Kyubi souls are battling somewhere for eternity in the “Belly of Death?” That goes on to my next question, just like the seal can be loosened with the key on Naruto’s stomach releasing the Yang Kyubi. Can the key, or perhaps another, also be used to release the Yin Kyubi from it’s imprisonment in hell? Maybe even along with Minato’s soul even though he would have no body to return to thus making him still dead whereas the Kyubi is more etheral and not physical. I digress, the point is can Madera perhaps find this out. Find a way to release the Yin part of the Kyubi and seal it into another body making an Anti-Nartuo? Two hosts with the same monster. Yin (unknown host) vs. Yang (Naruto) what does anybody think? Also another quick question if the Yang (light) side of the Kyubi is sealed into Naruto then why is it still so damn evil? I would hate to see the Yin side, sheesh.

    @jdb44: Lol, are you implying that Kushina may have cheated on Minato with Jiraiya thus making Naruto Jiraiya’s kid? I know that sounds sick but that’s just what I got off of your Jiraiay/Tsunade conversation breakdown. You probably never meant to even imply it so, yeah.

  114. He’s a Sage…there was a pic of him on the cover of a manga chapter sitting on a frog. No “scientific experiments” needed. I have that pic but can’t upload it to this post for some reason. Let me know how and I can provide it “pronto.”

    In addition, in the first episode of Naruto Anime, Yondaime appears on a toad (Gamabunta?).

  115. somebody thinks minato was sage….*yawns*
    stop dreaming *goes to look who came up with the theory* jeremiah…thats not the case…*yawns louder than before*

    my points:
    1. never seen him using him
    2. ok…so, maybe he didn’t get that much screening…but we saw him fight the 9-tails at the very first episode….we never heard him being in “the sage mode”
    3. ok…we couldn’t see him properly then too….but we saw jiraiya with the “frog coat” the first time he was introduced….
    4. so…minato had a “over coat” too…so? even the third did…besides, it’s clearly written “4th hokage” on the back of his coat…(for those who can read japanese)and as far as i am concerned…that’s the official uniform for the hokages…

    5. hate me for my broken writing? you can do that…

  116. wtf…now you’re gonna go commenting on every post aren’t ya…

  117. the first point: “never seen him using it”

    other points:
    * the first picture shows no connection other than the blonde hair (and the middle one has white) if that mere resemblance was a sign that minato belongs with the sages, “so does nidaime”

    my most important point (which will make you realize the truth as well):
    pa frog (or was it the ma frog) said: “maybe he’s a sage to surpass jiraiya” (<<<point: didn’t mention the 4th)

    jiraiya had problem with transformation…if the 4th was a sage too, he would have done a little better (<<<point: they would refer jiraiya when they said “maybe naruto’s become a sage to surpass ______”

    nobody said “surpassing the earlier generation means they know what you do….they just weren’t good at it”(<<<jiraiya can use fire tech…naruto can’t)
    it means “you can win what they couldn’t…”
    so, naruto has sage mode…and has made rasen-shuriken…
    but the 4th wasn’t feared for either of this…he was feared for “the flash technique” (<<<sounds perverted but is really scary…how would you feel if the person you see at a distance is behind you at an instant?) so, naruto hasn’t learned it (<<<the sage mode and rasen-shuriken compensated that lack of knowledge…means…if the 4th knew sage mode too…nobody would go on saying “naruto has surpassed the 4th hokage”)
    so, i made my point…and this time, it’s not a theory…it’s an obvious truth…the sooner you realize it….well, let’s not go that far…

    Bottom line: Minato never was a sage

  118. random grammatical error…but you get the point right?

  119. Well for starters i just thought id talk about the “Jiraiya getting his clothes after becoming a sage” well check out Naruto Manga 376 page 10 and you see a flashback of jiraiya i think during or coming to the end of his sage training getting his future predicted and appanently this is before he starts being a pervert. Id say that he is around narutos shippuuden age.
    About the Minato being a sage just because he uses frogs and does rasengan. Well rasengan is his move that he made up and secondly naruto in the original episodes uses gamabunta does that mean that he was a sage before now?
    As far as i know the only thing that makes a sage a sage is the dark pigmentation around the eyes (which are frog like), the use of some kind of scroll and the use of nature chakra.
    besides who’s to say that that is a “Sage Cloak”. Last time i checked Jiraiya doesnt wear anything like that. I think the point of Naruto wearing it is to show his relation to Minato and the scroll and the eyes is to show his relation to Jiraiya.
    My Conclusion: Minato isn’t a Sage.

  120. @harsy: how did you know that? you’ve seen right through me dude!!!lmfao

    i need to do some catching up, don’t i?

  121. minato was never a sage,
    the british never had a queen
    hitler had a secret room full of barbie dolls
    mattel stole hot wheels from matchbox
    fire is nothing, it’s just an illusion to stop kids from entering casual sex bars
    superman never wore underpants

  122. i loved that hitler info…
    where did you learn that from?

  123. i delved into the deep passageways of moria where the balrog awakened, i told him i was gandalf’s nephew and he spewed up everything..(ps= if you ever want to know anything else, tell him that aragorn is your son…works every time ^^)

  124. *Wow Hitler man…*

  125. @Pain- All of your “(<<<points)” had already been brought up and addressed in the earlier comments. Yawns…Your statements have brought nothing new to the discussion. 🙂

    Harshy, Hitler also had uncontrollable flatulence. Honest. 😉

  126. wow somebody took history (that some body being jdb44)

  127. O and Minato’s Flash Step is a bloodline limit and not a sage mode technique as somebody mentioned earlier so if Naruto was to learn how to do that in his usual Naruto (“KAGEBUUSHIN NO JUTSU!!!!!!!”) way he would have officially surpassed his father.
    Id like that

    p.s R.I.P Hitler the flatulent, barbie doll collecting racist dictator

  128. *Minato… a sage… thats rich*

  129. @jbd44: *yawns louder than the normal threshold of hearing*
    sorry if i am late but i just returned (and it’s not like if you say “the sun rises from the east” i can’t repeat that…besides, i didn’t copy from others…so, case closed minato’s not a sage…boyx is correct…except for the bloodline limit thing…we will need a new theory post for that)

  130. @ Boney – lmao, good comment. Completely unsubstantiated info but still a good comment. No one knows if Flash Step was a bloodline limit but it ahs been discussed before.

  131. fair do’s its jus summin i herd

  132. Last! i think? YEAH! get some. And giving Minato sage mode would be giving him way to much power. Maybe he would have learned it later in life, but he was so powerful during the war he wouldn’t have needed to learn the sage arts. Not saying that he didn’t, but given his age and the fact that he already had so much power, why would he have felt the urgency to spend time, in such a dangerous error, practicing being perfectly still? I mean the mans famous jutsu was about movement, i just cant quite see him as being one with nature at such a young age when he didnt need to be like naruto does. I have a feeling sage training is an honor gained by spending way too much time fighting alongside the toads. Minato didnt have a need for it or the time, as konohas best ninja, to take time off from the war to learn a technique that he didnt need. This argument is such a drag.

  133. @demon: Nope, sorry dude I’m last. ;p

    “Anybody else who posts gets a Dynamic Entry to the fcae, BELIEVE IT!” *cheezy smile with a sparkle and a ding* 🙂

  134. *Supertrek crouches behind the bushes where all the ninjas seem to be nowadays*

    (Glaring at Jeremiah) *_*

  135. @Ibi

    Your point is well taken. However, from a more scietifical or mathematical point of view being generally accepted is not proof enough.

    However here are some arguments to poke holes in the case.

    J makes a good point when he says that characters only get upgrades in clothing for huge accomplishments or gaining an insane amount of power.

    So there are two things about Minato that are facts he was Hokage and has the ability to summon the frogs like Naruto and Jiraiya.

    Being Hokage very good reason to get a clothing upgrade.

    Summoning frogs not as good but does give the outside possibility he might be a sage. From that point of view it seems more likely upgrade was for becoming Holage. As we all know the ability to summon does not mean you are a sage. There are many people using summons but only two possibly three of them are sages. Also in everything we know about Minato (which is very little) that even remotely suggests that he was a sage (which I am hoping he was would really add to the value of the manga).

  136. Congratulations on the one million hits.

  137. As much time as Jiraya spent with Naruto making the comparisons to Minato. You see the frogs doing the same thing with comparing Naruto to Jiraya in his Sage training. I never saw the frogs compare Naruto to Minato or mention Minato’s sage training. Don’t you think that would come into play at some point?

  138. Minato was not a sage
    Sai has awesomeness abs
    Tsunade needs to use Breast Augmenting pills everyday
    Karui used mayonaise and just said that to look at samui’s rack
    Captain planet is a very bad man
    spiderman has wings
    Red Bull ACTUALLY gives you wings
    I have a maxed out gaming rig
    I downloaded the internet in 5 mins
    I uploaded the internet in 2 mins
    Pain named himself after an encouter with yashiko gave him a pain in the ASS!
    harshytkage speaks the most sensible things in the world
    Pain(the commenter) is the most courteous man on the planet
    SasuGAY is straight
    Our lady peace wrote “innocent” while watching porn
    Micheal Jackson is just another human being
    DC is better than marvel
    The joker was serious when he said that
    Chelsea/Liverpool/Arsenam are better than Man UTD
    Saddam was kidding when he said he was the ruler of iraq
    China is a capitalist
    the US is the most social country in the world
    Amongtheliving is not an Assface
    Skyhigh actually succeeds to convert me over to the dark…i mean SasuGAY side
    Gai is defeated by pain
    Chuck norris is more powerful than the swayze
    Sakura lost her assets in the stock market crash
    Hinata gained them during that period
    Kakshi is the uncoolest character ever written
    he has buck teeth
    oh yeah! hitler actually did have sexual intercourse with a model of the earth( also known as a Globe), it is said the area he penetrated was actually germany…

  139. ok…actually the evidence that minato isn’t a sage is too overwhelming so i ask a mod to edit my post above to say that minato was a sage..

  140. Supertrek: “HIYAHHH” *jumps outta the bushes with flying kick* “Dynamic entry to the face posters!”

    *Supertrek misses*
    *Supertrek gets jumped by edubkage, erich22, and harshy*
    *ninjas in bush laugh*

    Supertrek: “Hehe, at least I still get the last po…Ouch, not the face!”

    FIN 🙂

  141. Supertrek: Hi
    Harshy: Bye


  142. Harshy: Hi!
    Supertrek: Bye


  143. ok guys….i’ve seen all the posts, and i understand that the arguement of “coats” seem to dominate here. I just think that’s a little insignificant in proving that minato was a sage. Like i keep saying, there’s a little reason why a genius nin like minato was kept out of spotlight, and also there’s a reason why the kyuubi, tsunade, and most notably jiraiya have not told naruto that minato was naruto’s dad. I think these revelations would serve to be developments that would spice things up later(more like saving the best for last, if you know what i mean.) Possibly, a revelation that minato was a sage would prompt naruto to want to surpass his father as a sage. But that’s just by the way.

    If we all remember correctly, we would recall that even jiraiya who was supposed to be a sage said even he couldn’t control gamabunta fully, and that only the fourth could. Now, knowing the toads are animals that possess the skills of senjutsu, we would also know that gamabunta is essentially a sage toad(at least his eyes are evidence, cause it corresponds with naruto’s in sage mode). Hence it would be fair to say that it wouldn’t make much sense for someone who was not a sage to have full control over a sage frog, one that jiraiya, a sage, couldn’t fully control.

    Another point is that fukusaku reminded naruto that only those who were witty and gutsy could be sages. Now if there’s one word that jiraiya used in describing the fourth, it’s gutsy.

    Enough said.

    But the point still remains that even though we suspect there’s a little light shed in the debate of minato being a sage, we’ve got to fully respect kishi as the author of naruto and let him shed more light on that field.

    Jana, sexy boys and girls…..

    and by the way, anyone here into death metal and grindcore….or maybe heavy metal? Hit my email.


  144. but yeah harshy, one thing you’re leaving out….hitler had one testicle. And so did mussolini, i think.

  145. and wait harshy….you’re a football fan….and a fan of british clubs? Sweet matey. I’ll very much prefer you were an arsenal fan.

  146. Jeremiah actually nothing I confused this site with another one while writing that post.
    “which part of this is supposed to suprise me? -.-”
    “@ allschoolrejects – which comment are you referring to? Is someone above claiming to have surprising info? Or are you just commenting on the fact that you think Minato is a Sage and shouldn’t surprise anyone…”

    About the topic at hand tho it’s nice to speculate but that’s what it will always be just a speculation(until further evidence). Probably means sage wardrobe because Naruto wouldn’t change his trunks Unless there was gain from it like Maito’s and Lee’s spandex green suit he wanted to wear these when they were told to be beneficial in training. So I’d go so far to say that Sage clothing gives bonus resilience to nature chakra making one a frog. An attribute like the 7 swords of the mist field.
    Peace out!

  147. @totalitarianhypnosis

    MAN UTD FTW!!!!!

  148. theres been a lot of talking about those capes/coats … isn’t it possible that only one who has become a full sage is allowed to wear the cape that naruto is wearing (meaning that minato was a sage as well, since he was wearing the same type of coat… ) after all the frogs have mentioned that even though jiraya called himself a sage, he never really was one, because he didn’t fully master sage mode.
    other evidence pro minato as a sage:
    he was the strongest ninja ever, people were told to run at sight, and i don’t think it’s very likely you could get that kind of reputation because of a single technique
    that means he must’ve had other amazing jutsu at his disposal, and since we only know of rasengan, sage mode seems very likely to be his third ace, in case the opponent is strong enough to counter the previous attacks
    @ everyone who wonders why he didn’t use sage mode against the kyuubi: the kyuubi itself is one huge concentration of chakra… there’s no way, even with sage mode, that he would be strong enough to fight it face to face, so he needed a trick => sealing the damn fox away…

  149. @ allschoolrejects – yeah, that appears to be the case

    @ nova89 – thats the jist of the article… I’m assuming you read it.

  150. just pointing out.. the bottom lines of the coats Minato and Naruto have flames, Jiraiya doesn’t. Is that due to the Will of Fire (way of life, smth Jiraiya made his own in the end not fast enough to get cape with flames lol.), father and son(hint) or the fact that both of these capes With flames are seen While Konoha is in great danger like Minato with 9-tails Or now Naruto with Pain doing Shinra Tensei like just a swing of tail by the 9-tails.

  151. @allschoolrejects:

    Nice observations in your latest post. I agree with that more.

    @everyone else:

    The cape cloak doesn’t certify them as a Sage. It certifies them as a full out pimp like Swayze!

    When Jiraiya goes to the bath houses, he’s not peeping. He just wants people to THINK he’s peeping. What he’s actually doing is collecting money from his beeyotches!

  152. Oh yea, and X = pimp in the chain.

  153. i might be wrong but i dont think i am and i am shocked that no one has pointed this out yet, in http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/430/19/ boss frog talks to pa frog about those forms, plural and it shows the 4th and j-man and says yes he does and talks as if he knows both. I only assume pa only teaches sage, which leads me to believe (if you believe pa was talking about both) that the 4th study under him and learned sage mode. When i 1st started this post i was 100% but after rereading the the manga frame im only 90% i thought pa commented on “those two”. But there my two cents

  154. oh and for who ever asked or said the 4th might not have used frogs http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/01/ and i know the anime doesn’t count but come on it shows him on boss frog, look close u can see a man on the frog in the middle bottom on the link

  155. @urisas:

    I can’t help but notice in your link that Naruto is telling Tsunade to go have a cup of tea… or something. Should Tsunade have some Chamomile Tea? Or some OTHER sort of fracking tea? XD

    Read this for reference:

    So admins, what sort of tea should we have at the next Awesomeness Party? 😀

  156. heh heh, it would be funny if kushina was some how involved with sage training and was turned into a frog. hence not alot of info about her 😛

  157. Can we agree that while sage mode is an important step in Naruto’s power, he still has far to go in terms of truelly surpassing Minato?

    I say this b/c:

    1. Minato while fighting the 9-tailed fox uses the death god technique, which takes TIME, as established while the 3rd fights oro. So we now know that Minato had to have tremendous power to fight off the fox and prepare his jutsu…yes some of you are thinking sage power; however:

    2. While training Naruto J-man nearly dies when Naruto attacks him in his four tailed state…so we can speculate that J-man probably went sage mode and thats what saved his life b/c it reduced the damage…this is consistant b/c oro also had a tuff time with Naruto at the brigde fight. So

    3. If J-man could barely fight off the kyuubi at four tails…how could Minato fight off and prepare his jutsu agains the all out power of the 9-tails with help from only sage chakra, which we know now is not powerful enough to battle against Pain yet alone the demon fox.

    In Summation: could there possibly be a level beyond Sage Master, and if so had Minato acheived it?

  158. A level beyond Sage Master = Hokage… or Swayzekage.

  159. @rockleex haha def think she would want sake after everything but maybe she would wash it down with some tea

    @domosenpai i agree with you weather or not the 4th was a sage he had to have more powers then just that to be able to fight the nine tails and moat likely madara. i doubt any ninja techs would work on the nine tails which only leave swayze techs which mostly consist of making pottery lol

  160. Proof that Minato is still alive… in a way, at least.

    Hokage = Swayzekage

    Minato = Hokage

    Swayze = ghost making pottery

    Therefore, we can conclude that Minato = ghost making pottery.

    Now, Naruto just has to find a black lady. >_<

  161. ok…i’m yet to see what’s so important about this flash step of the fourth you guys rant about. The thing is, sasuke’s developed that as well, and the fourth was not particularly strong because of the flash step. Fine, he was called konoha’s yellow flash, and it’s even said that the sharingan could not follow his movements, but there had to be something other than body flickering that made him monstrously strong. The funny thing is you guys prob dont have a clue. That’s why the debate of the fourth being a sage is substantial at this point.

  162. They dont have a clue about stuff…which is why they discuss it >_>

  163. @totalhyp.- saskue has not developed the flash step, he moves really fast and there is a huge difference. The flash step involves a summoning mark taking you directly to the mark in an instant. what you see in the anime is just to show the speed, both deidara nad madara saw saskue moving at them , they just had slower reactions. The differences between mvoing really fast and the flash step is simple a) with the flash step you cover distances much further. Like moving the speed of sound or light in a space of 50 feet is negligible, but you extend that to 500 feet or 5,000 feet and it becomes a huge difference. The further away the opponent is the more effective the flash step is over saskue’s incredibly fast speed. b)the flash step is a time/space more than anything in that the user is summoned to the location he has marked. Somebody shoots a huge fire wall at you and you want to get behind your opponent to take him out. Saskue even with his speed has to move out of the fire ball’s way and then run behind the opponent and the further this distance is, the more likely he will be noticed. The 4th on the other hand, if he has previously marked the opponent, can just summon himself right behind his opponent becuase he avoids the attack all together by going into another dimension and popping back out whereever he wants to that he has previously marked. Itachi could see saskue’s movements with a sharingan, but itachi would not be able to see the fourth’s movements because there is no movement other than appearing right behind/next to/whatever his opponent. Not to mention saskue can only keep up that speed in short spurts, just like any sprinter. Notice how his movements began to slow down as he began to focus on other things like his own jutsus, their jutsus, etc. Unlike the fourth, who as long as he can do the technique, his speed will be the exact same.

    and body flickering is something different, it’s using soemhting to distract your opponents attention while you move. Like the leaves when kakashi and saskue appear at the chunin exam. They weren’t blindingly fast just everybody’s attention was on the leaves, same goes for Gaara’s sand. Body flicker is distracting your opponent to make it look like you disappeared (aka smoke screen), fast movement is just fast movement like saskue’s or rock lee. and body flicker is basically moving at the speed of light to your opponent

    here’s the difference between body flicker and flash step (which is bleach, the real name is flying thunder god)

    http://www.leafninja.com/ninjutsu-05.php#00A (you’ll see it when you stroll down)
    http://www.leafninja.com/ninjutsu-16.php (this is the body flicker, you’ll notice it says used by the fourth, this is an old thing and they have yet to update it. This move only makes it appear that you move fast because you use something to mask your movements)

    some advice, especially for you schy who should know better by now, oh wait you’ve been to busy spamming the place… don’t question my knowledge on something that has actually happened…

  164. Um…yeah…but isn’t that Jiraiya pre-sage training phase. I still got your back though Jeremiah. I still do believe Minato was a sage. I was just pointing the facts out before others do. Why would Jiraiya be wearing a sage coat before he (presumably) even knew about sage training? Still good find Ero and I appreciate you pointing it out for us in an update of the post Jeremiah. Gives us food for thought. 🙂

  165. jeremiah- the coat doesn’t mean everything… they do live in the fire country (or did for the other two) after all. And the fourth’s coat is different than jiraya’s and Naruto’s. The fourth’s has a collar and was white and red, naruto has his in red and black flames with no collar. Jiraya didn’t have a colllar but it was in white and red too, but he had a different design around the neck. Not too mention the fourth has writing on his back while neither jiraya or naruto do. and jsut because they are so similar doesn’t mean everything either. Akatsuki all have the same design and color’s on their coats, they have for the most part the same hats too. Doesn’t mean they all have the same abilities, it’s a symbol. Like the uchiha crest. Even those who weren’t ninja’s could wear the fan because they were uchiha, doesn’t mean they all had the sharingan. You have to admit it’s a sick design that represents something, but Jiraya was wearing his before he found the frogs (maybe right after, but he definentily didn’t have sage mode) and he gave it up once he became a jounin anyway. While the fourth was not wearing it until he became the hokage. There is somehting called the will of fire in konoha. This will of fire as you obviously know represents a person’s desire to protect their village no matter what the cost. the coat obviously has flames so it could represent that this person carries the will of fire (kishi uses as symbols in these cases as the person who will do anything to protect they’re village). At first jiraya was this person (obviously kishi makes this up as he goes and therefore there are a lot of flaws as with any theory) but then it was passed on to the next generation to the fourth and now it is finally naruto’s. The coat goes along with the geneartion that is taking over (jiraya and the sannin with the second and third war, the fourth and his generation which fought the third ninja war, and now Naruto’s which msut deal with Akatsuki and the threat of the fourth and final ninja war hovering on the horizon).

    my bad for the grammar, spelling, etc, i’m really tired right now.

  166. @ Supertrek – as I said in the post thread, we only know that he did go through sage training we just don’t know when. Could have been at any point in hisnin life. But if I’m right and u get that upon achieving Sage mastery then he was roughly 3 years younger than Naruto.

  167. Was this one found?

  168. @everyone:
    sorry…minato is/was a sage…really sorry for that….
    actually, ero is the one to show me that…so, i owe my thanks to him…

  169. @alec
    maybe the coats arent a symbol of sage mode and jus plain old frog lover coats. because we see tht jiraiya was very young wen the old frog gave him the prophecy. he looks just as young as when he was being trained with tsunade and orochimaru. he may have recieved the cloak there and then gone to find the hidden leaf. if memory serves the frogs said he found the mountain by wandering which leads me to the question, if he was training toi be a ninja y wud he be wandering around in the middle of howhere? and even tho there is a subtle difference in them its not like the frogs would go around handing out the same ones. and minato may have changed his slightly when he became hokage. we wudnt know until we find out what it says tbh(ibi could probably figure tht out, she seems well……educated).

  170. Funny how totalitarianhypnosis talks as if we know nothing about Minato when in fact its him who doesn’t.


    I took schy’s comment differently. It seemed like he was trying to say that, in general, people discuss things in order to help clarify their understanding of things.

  171. i appreciate your guy’s comments, but that was the exact same thing i was saying… so again thank you for giving a synopsis of what i jsut said…

  172. My apologies if someone has already pointed this out but…

    Ibiki: the Kanji script down the Yondaime Hokage’s back reads…”Fourth.”

    To everyone else, the flames are not just represenative of the Will of Fire. It represents the Natural Energy flames a Sage must generate – aka, “Hakke.” Make note of the “flames” of the Natural Energy that Naruto induces when summoning Sage Technique.

    The “key” that Naruto may or may not possess is his Hakke “key” – hence the reference to giving the key to the source when Jiraiya was battling Pain.

  173. @ Penny – great comment ^_^

    @ everyone else… ummmmm what he/she said.^

  174. Hey look what I noticed Jeremiah. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/406/02/ on the last panel Pa Frog calls Jiraiya “Liitle Jiraiya” so there’s some proof that Pa Frog may have known and trained Jiraiaya when he was a kid. Possible proof that Jiraiya was a sage in that picture above with Orochimaru and the 3rd? Either that or Pa Frog is really really really old to be calling a 50 year old man “little”.:)

  175. Damn period messed up my smiley face! *scoff*

  176. @penny – i agree with jeremiah. go you! ^_^

  177. if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck . . .could be the uppper half of a platypus???? HAHA!! I don’t think the flame coat points it out. Jiraya had the flame coat when he was a kid, i think he started sage training a little later. Could be like a family coat. Like kishi is tying the family together?? im not sure. I really don’t think minato was a sage. It seems like only Naruto and Jiraya had been through sage training, Or the elder frog or jiraya would have mentioned Minato whhile he was talking about the destined chiled jiraya was suppose to train.(not sure what chapters it was but it was somewhere when nagato was being introduced and jiraya thought he might be the child of the prophecy when it was naruto actually) New step of power for minato could be becoming the hokage and thats why he wears the coat. Also the coat doesn’t signify the mastery of senjutsu. Jiraya didn’t master it. Noone did. Maybe Naruto Just maybe. And i say this because he hasn’t fully acquired everything to know about it yet. as far as katas and genjutsu. stuff like that.

  178. If anyone said this before my bad. I was just like what after i read the post.

    @ jeremiah, not taking anything away from you. Minato could very actually be a sage. But the evidence you showed wasnt very good proof of that.

  179. Lol @ platypus.

  180. minato has the coat when he becomes hokage. he doesnt have it before.

    Jiraiya gets after he is named sannin.

    Naruto gets it when he has mastered sage mode.

  181. And sorry,

    Tsunade has coat as well. And I am pretty sure the Oro had it as well. Same applies to 3rd Hokage he had it as well.

    pretty sure 3rd hokage wasnt in sage mode. Yet i reckon he could beat Jiraiya comfortably.

  182. @ rockleex well it could be (picks up and points at a platypus) SEE??? lol

  183. I dont think minato was a sage for the mere fact that that ma and pa frog don’t mention minato’s training when they were with naruto in mybokozou although they did mention the great jiraiya. also the coat he wears was probly the hokage jacket since he was hokage…hmm idk most of what i was gonna say was said by ikibi so…

  184. Osensei – its all the evidence that is in the manga and time will prove me correct. It’s a hypothesis.


  185. I really can see that Minato is a sage. That fact the no one mentions that he is to naruto doesn’t mean anything… no one says much of anything about naruto’s family to him. It’s all s-rank black ops cover up.

    all 4 of them are sage…

    The Flash
    and the “Sage” of the Six Paths (he even has the hair)

  186. I remember a comment about someone not believing Minato even summoned toads and I found this while going back and reading the manga agian.

    First it starts at the bottom with Gamabunta’s thoughts.


    Then read what Gamabunta thinks next.


  187. @supertrek89

    Alright mate, that pretty much does it. GET LOST.

  188. hmmm very good analysis!!!
    I want to believe that he is a sage but the problem i come up with is theres no reference to it at all other than naruto pimpin his daddys jacket. Is the flaming jacket an official sign of sagedom or is he paying homage to his dads style or maybe its something everyone who makes a frog pact gets to wear like a high school jacket. I could be swayed to say that he’s not for the fact when they explained the sage training to naruto, minato was never mentioned whatsoever. they could have at least thrown in a”Maybe he’ll learn as fast as the fourth did” or “He reminds me of the fourth”. They only mentioned jiraya.

  189. liked the post… i like the analasis bout the clothes cause i thouth the sme things but i always wondered why naruto started wearing that… he didnt really have time to go out shoppin before he went back to the village so that brings out a question to my mind… did the frogs make it for him?? if they did then it raises the possibilities that minato was a sage and they had either seen him wearing it or had indeed given it to him… then once naruto became a sage they could have made him one.. either cause he became a sage or just cause they know that naruto is minatos son… either way im intreaged to know wat naruto thinks of his badass coat…

    Anyways this was my first comment ever and just wanted to say how allot of theses post help me get wat goes on in the magna in more detail than i would by myself…


  190. Jiraiya refers to himself as a sage when he is talking to the great toad. He might just be bragging because the sage toad doesn’t remember his name, however by this point he knows something about it.


  191. LMAO, I forgot what I did to Totalitarian to get him so pissed! XD…nope can’t seem to find anything or remember at all. Perhaps he would know.

  192. He isnt a sage… the only “sages” is tsunade, orochimaru and jiraya 😛 And they got their name from a “salamanter + rain” dude.. witch pain killed (surprising 😛 ) But he WAS konoha’s yellow flash 😛

  193. MwMseeta u mean “the legendary sannin” yeh the only sannin were tsunade, oro, and jiraya, however they mean sages (like naruto is)
    It should be more like: Minato Sage and surreal xD
    new manga is awesome =P

  194. Of course he is a Sage cause he could summon the toad boss.It takes a lt of chakra to summon him ,so only a sage could get that much energy.Case solved.

  195. Oh and he must make a pact with the toads to summon them, so he must have trained in Mt.Toad .Sorry for double posting.

  196. minato is not a sage because if you notice in his fight between the fox he does not have the ma and pa toads attached to him, which they said had been required by every sage before naruto. without them, the sage would have to be still and quiet at the same time while still fighting. and on top of that, he did not turn into a toad at all. jiriahs nose turned toad like and naruto’s eyes turn toad like in sage mode. yet in the fight against the fox, minato shows now signs of toad in him. some may argue that he was not using sage mode, but if that was the biggest fight of his life, then why wouldn’t he? he did however have a pact with the toads, because he could summon them at will.

  197. i dont think so. thats on my opinion.

  198. After reading that article who wouldn’t be convinced, thanks for the heads up some more knowledge on Naruto added to the database =)



  199. When Naruto sign the contract with the frogs(first time he trains with jiraya) it’s written in japanese the names of people who also signed this contract, It’s on chapter 92 page 19. I think you have to learn to summon a frog before you can become a sage. I’ve been thinking of this too ever since i saw this contract cuse in the anime jirayas name is before narutos and when i saw that i was like WTF! where’ minatos name!?

  200. It may be true that ALL 3 share particular traits that resemble one another. However, the author’s current purpose during his chapters presented (as you can see from sasuke’s realization of Itachi, the truth about Nagato, and naruto realization that minato is in fact his father) proves that Masashi WANTS us to go through another manga period- one that I like to call “revelation”. His desire at the moment is to inform of us of every..little..thing..that is happening, or that has happening- things that were once unprovocable, secretive.
    Therefore, Minato’s trait of being a “sage” does not have enough concrete proof to prove that he is, in fact, another sage. He was Naruto’s “frontier” of course, but Kishimoto would have indicated sooner that he was in touch with the frog spirits in the Naruto world.
    Thats just my opinion!

  201. Old theory, I know, but still, I love it. But I noticed something about the coats that ruins the theory a bit, and I’d like to hear the author’s answer to this:

    Your picture of all the three’s sage coat, Jiraiya in particular: The scene where he wears this is from Sarutobi’s Bell Test, and this was in the very beginning of Jiraiya’s ninja life and his arrival in the frog world is AFTER this Bell Test. So how could he wear this coat if it comes from the frog world and is given to every trained Sage?

  202. My answer to that aeris, would be to ask you for the chapter and page where it says when Jiraiya’s went through Sage training.

    Sage training is to learn how to gather natural energy, this may be something that he learned before nin school. Much like many Uchiha know how to use Fuuton before nin school.

    It’s a valid point, but it isn’t a theory buster unless you can cite manga referring to his actual age during training, which you may be totally capable of doing. I just can’t think of it.

  203. Yeah, you got me there, of course I can’t cite the manga for Jiraiya’s sage training. But it’s in the anime, episode 127 & 128. Yes, it is a filler, I know, but…. Kishi is having a look at the anime, isn’t he? I know, mistakes were made earlier (Kakashi copying Hyouton Jutsus in the first movie), but…

    If the anime is all wrong: Do you really think that Jiraiya-boy was training Sen-Jutsus BEFORE the bell test? I mean, he totally sucked and made every mistake one could make. Yes, of course his character stays clumsy as ever, like Naruto, but if he really absolved Sen-training in the frog world and got so far that the frogs gave him the coat (“change of apperance and clothes only occurs if there is a great change of skill”), I think it’s hard to believe that he totally sucked in the bell test…

  204. aeris, I still don’t believe the coat is a symbolic proof of sage-dom, so your point is well made. I DO, however (despite any argument I made above to be a complete pain in the ass), believe that Jeremiah’s assertion that Minato was sage is correct.

    Jiraiya is shown with the frogs at the time of the prophecy about his student being the shit. I’m not going to go back and pull a photo, but if you wanted evidence, you might look at Jiraiya’s battle with Peins and his flashbacks to the mount M prophecy. I think if you compare THAT Jiraiya to the bell test portrayal, he’s clearly older at the frog mountain. NOW…whether or not that’s his first round of training with the frogs is another argument entirely…

    Personally, I think Kishi came up with the coat for no other reason than it sells keychains, posters and other kitschy crap. It means nothing but $$$…and that pisses me off.

  205. @kumari: Well, but please don’t forget Penny’s remark: “the flames are not just represenative of the Will of Fire. It represents the Natural Energy flames a Sage must generate – aka, “Hakke.” Make note of the “flames” of the Natural Energy that Naruto induces when summoning Sage Technique.”

    I think that Minato was a sage as well, so that’s not the point. But I believe that the argumentation with the COAT does not work because I belive in the anime, flashback episodes 127 & 128 Shippuuden, where it is cleary shown that Jiraiya goes into the frog world AFTER the bell test. I know (or can assume) that the majority of people only take the manga as “the real thing” and do not believe anything from the anime. But I’m not that way.

    Anyways, awesomeness analysis!!

  206. Will of fire? Naw…will of fire would put Sarutobi in the coat too, but then I guess his pipe became Asuma’s cigs and lighter. Which, again, points to a possible Jiraiya, Minato, Naruto lineage that is not just master-student… (O.o)

  207. Woah… lots of comments! 😛

    Well, I personally, didn’t know that Minato was a Sage. This is probably cuz I never really thought about it. I only thought about Jiraiya and Naruto’s Sage Training…

  208. Ok, its obvious Jiraiya had the cloak before he started sage training. I think the cloaks don’t prove anything. Minato and Naruto copied the design to pay tribute to Jiraiya. I think it has to do with the Will of the Fire, not Sages.

    In Kakashi Gaiden, Minato shows off his abilities which include teleportation and raw speed, but no where does he use any sage techniques even when he prepares to face off against 50 enemy shinobi. He also isnt in Sage Mode while standing on Gamabunta about to engage the Kyuubi.

    Now Kakashi Gaiden has to take place at most 2 years before Naruto’s birth. I highly doubt Minato would be training to become a Sage during those 2 years due to the fact of the war that was going on and his promotion to Hokage.

    Lastly, Jiraiya didn’t introduce Naruto to Sage Training, Fukasaku did. The toads wouldn’t just train some random genin, even if he was Jiraiyas student. Naruto was trained because Fukasaku thought he needed to be for the sake of the ninja world. I believe Jiraiya introduced Minato to the toads just like he did with Naruto, but why would Jiraiya have Minato trained as a Sage and not Naruto?

  209. minato was a sage its tooo obvious >_> ( from my view LOL )

  210. @Fanboi: But nobody said that Jiraiya trained Minato as a Sage!?! He might have introduced them to the frogs, but nothing more. As with Naruto, like you said.

    Well, in the end, Fanboi, all situations that Minato was in that you mentioned were really dangerous, though the situation in the World War: I mean, he knew that his teleportation jutsu would be enough 😉
    And the fight against the Kyuubi: Hmm, that depends on how you look at it: Do you (all) REALLY think a living human could defeat such a Bijuu? No matter if Hokage, Kiri Swordsman, Sannin, or Sage?? I don’t think so.
    As we know, the only way to “defeat” the Kyuubi is to be able to control it => Hashirama’s ability, which he used in the fight against Madara. So, I think Minato knew that he possessed NO ability or jutsu to defeat the Kyuubi, he only had the sealing jutsu and this was his only opportunity. So why go into Sage Mode when it’s no use anyway?

  211. Nice to see people commenting on an old topic ^_^

    However enough with the old and on with the new 😛

  212. I still don’t see minato as a sage, i feel he could have been in training when he died, but able to use sage mode like naruto and jiraya was probbaly another couple of years away for him unfortunately.

    I’m going to have to go with the marketing ploy, at the time of naruto’s return, there had been a two week break and it was christmas time, what a better way to ramp up sales than to make a new-kick ass dress for a character in the manga’s biggest fight so far. And honestly it probably has nothing to do with the will of fire, it’s the fact that they live in the land of fire. and it’s some coat jiraiya wore as a kid, much like naruto wore the orange jump suit (and still does to my annoyance). He obviosuly ditched it long before he met minato and thus i feel minato’s was a just a fashion choice. Being that the normal robe is just really lame and minato, bieng the true g-thug he was, needed something far cooler to wear, so he came up with that jacket which had fire on it to represent the land of fire.

    Much like minato was on the way to combining his element with rasengan, i think he was still working on his sage training when he died, which means if he hadn’t died, he would be the most absolute badass ninja ever and could probably kick anyobdies ass no problem.

  213. i think minato can’t use sage mode because,jiraiya have many students like yahiko,konan,nagato,minato and 2 unknow genin & naruto.jiraiya not teach all of his student sage mode because sage mode is dangerous,it can change into a frog,so jiraiya do not want take this risk to his student.But naruto learn it because fukasaku want taught he.

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