Who’s Got the Biggest Balls or If Konohamaru can learn rasengan you can too

Hey all, this is Mollie (Ibiki Teishi) .  I couldn’t let the Konohamaru makes-a-big-splash-with-his-little-rasengan controversy go by without stirring the pot a bit, and I know you’ve seen me in the comments working up trouble.  The thing is, we’ve got an awesomeness resource in each other, because none of us is as dumb as all of us (ack!  whups.) all of us are smarter than one of us. 

meetings

This post is thanks to a very awesomeness collective group mind–and I gotta say the twists and turns in that groupmind are pure genius, a splash of inspiration and a little bit of lunacy just for good measure.  Okay, in the case of some, a whole lotta lunacy…and I can’t mention lunacy without screaming (because Jeremiah promised we would get sick of him doing this, and I haven’t yet) :  “MMmmmmmmaito Gaaaaaaaiiiiiiii!!!!”

Jeremiah started us off  with the three steps to make the rasengan.  In case you forgot, here’s how it goes…

SPIN

STEP ONE: SPIN

 

ADD POWER

STEP 2: ADD POWER

 

COMPRESSION

STEP 3: COMPRESSION

Notice Jiraiya in this translation uses the word ‘concentrate’ which could mean orange juice out of a can.  The anime translations both use the word compression.  So I dug up the clip from episode 89 where J-man explains the third step.  Both the dub and the sub translate that compression is key to completing the last step.  I’ve posted both so you can pick and pan and we can eliminate argument over translation miscues.

first in sub:

then in dub:

Next Jiraiya demonstrates the difference between a rasengan at step 2 and this one, a completed step 3 (with compression) rasengan.

Okay…so that puts us on even ground even if you can’t remember the three steps and what the heck it all means.  Compression is not a theory as far as I’m concerned, but you’re welcome to reject the source of the information.

 SSOoo, now a recap of the discussion.  Does Konohamaru have tiny balls?  And is one tiny ball a bad thing?  (Look, honey, our little boy is growing up…look at the little things…they’re so cute!)

‘Compressed’ for you below is what the list had to say about the little guy’s young man learning Naruto’s ‘thing’–and I gotta tell you, general fan malaise on the net pretty much echoes the feelings expressed on awesomeness.  I stuck in a poll so you can vent any frustration very clearly; it’s a pretty negative poll, but I’ve heard some pretty angry people the last two weeks. So vent away.

At any rate, here’s what you had to say about the Konohamaru’s balls (pervs) rasengan, the size issue, and what the result of a head to head battle between K.ono and Naruto would be  Good points were made by all, and I tried hard to collect each one, but if I missed anyone–please let me know and I’ll add you in.

Why have the discussion in the first place?  Well, first to have something vent about since a good few of us didn’t believe/want Konohamaru to have this attack at first (Alec, EroSennin, me…).  I think it’s important to figure the mechanics out for future reference, especially in understanding Naruto’s new jutsu.  Plus, the discussions are for funsies (thx Alec).  ANnnnndd, if you break the steps down enough you all can play rasengan at home.  Hey, if Konohamaru can learn it–you can too (sigh.  you do realize that was a complete and total joke, right?).

Does size matter?  Is bigger better?  (If you really ask a woman, guys, they’ll tell you the truth:  not nearly as much as you like to think it does.  In fact, it really doesn’t in all but the most extreme cases.)  Here is a quick look at rasengan from across the manga.  If you’re really geekin’ and want me to post the chapter/page references and the opponents for these shots I can.  Also, if there’s a good one I missed, drop me a reference to get it added in.

 

Heroes of the Rasengan

Heroes of the Rasengan

 

Microtube/Pain, iamlegend, Furion and Charzelo insisted the power of the rasengan was due only to size, and most of them talked about Jiraiya’s insane Great Googly Moogly It’s Gonna Swallow You Whole Rasengan (fight with Pain, in the upper left). 

I kept nattering on about how the speed/power comes from compression making size a less predictable measure of what makes rasengan effective; anon backed me up talking about how a denser, faster rasengan would be more powerful.

EroSennin said that the compression makes it hold form, but that wasn’t what created the speed.  arrun said size was important because bigger meant more chakra, it would still be compressed, and went on to say that power came from the amount of chakra inside the sphere.   babyfox seconded this.  EroSennin reminded everyone that chakra compression has happened before and remembered the kyuubi compressing and eating chakra in the face off with Oro.

lastscorpion said compression wasn’t happening–and I would direct him to the instruction by Jiraiya above, but he did come in during the middle of the conversation, so cut him some slack.  He said rasengan’s power came from the speed of rotation (twice) and renzy backed him up.

Alec and renzy said the compression could be there, but it would just expand and slow down.  lastscorpion and Iamlegend listed arguments that would indicate compression would slow down the spin.  Iamlegend delivered an astronomy lesson about white dwarfs and mass and rotation speed that was truly something.  Which was kind of what Alec was getting at with his damage from rifle versus shotgun argument.

However, Alec, I think arrun told you the rifle and I have to second that.  Shot spreads out but does not penetrate due to lack of spin; rifle exit wounds are tremendous compared to the size of projectile.  Shot lodges.  Renzy said it didn’t matter, either one to the face and you’re dead.  Wellllll…..maybe you should ask Dick Cheney’s hunting companion about that.  Rifle it is.

EroSennin made a really interesting argument, that a bigger rasengan would spin faster in the middle, but be slower at the outside.  There where wheels and axles involved–it was truly brilliant, as was anon’s easy explanation of speed and density.

A lot of people found reasons to diss Konohamaru’s tiny sphere, saying that it isn’t just the size it’s the fact that it’s just weaker (or he’s just weaker) than what Naruto can do.  Some of this just sounded like trash talk to me (as if any of you had ever made a rasengan).  But one very valid point, was the fact that Kono used a clone to deliver the goods.  You can see in the shots gathered above, this hasn’t happened very often.  You all knew this, but here is the gathered evidence.   EroSennin, Furion, Alec, Arrun, and lastscorpion all mentioned something to this effect.

Alec told me not to look at color or texture as an indication of the strength of the rasengan, he said that was capricious on Kishi’s part.  I said ‘pffffft’ at the time, but looking back at these shots now, I think he had a pretty good point.  I do think there are some indications of color meaning something, as well as the threads inside, but that there are times when it just doesn’t make sense at all.

Last, we wondered whose rasengan might be best in a rasengan to rasengan blow.  Iamlegend and lastscorpion said big will win without any other considerations.  renzy said more chakra wins.  charzelo said Naruto wins (well, yeah! go Naruto!).

Alec told me to look for the evidence and the final outcome.  Unfortunately we didn’t have any this week–unless you count the fact that Kono’s Pain was summoned on his feet like nothing happened.

Having taken a look at the instructions, the shots of rasengan over time and our own discussion, what do you think now?  Is it possible for a small rasengan to pack more punch than a larger rasengan?

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~ by 千手 鼾弟子 Ibiki Teishi on December 19, 2008.

102 Responses to “Who’s Got the Biggest Balls or If Konohamaru can learn rasengan you can too”

  1. first!

  2. Thanks for the post. I wonder if I’m first. Its all about compression which determines the speed. However, that shifts because if the speed is higher than the compress of another Rasengun it defeats it. Konohamaru’s look like the most compressed an probably has the greatest speed theoretically it can beat all of them. However if someone’s chakra overwhelms their own, even though they should be weaker they are able to defend against that result. Eh how to say all three matter. If you can produce more chakra then your good however if they have enough compression speed they can go through yours. I also think each individual has to deal with their own amounts put in. Still Konohamaru’s looks like it could hurt one too many things

  3. Mutters something about reading. Here’s is a better way a shield can block an attack if its thick enough but can be pierced it the object’s moving at high speed. Also shield can make a powerful weapon if its like a giant version and overwhelms the target.

  4. well, this is me again…saying “the size is all that matters”….
    we should focus on these things first:
    1. konohamaru doesn’t have tailed beast within him: this might seem out of the ordinary but naruto in 4-tailed stage created a compressed chakra ball, orochimaru said “if i get hit by that thing i am dead for good”
    so, basically, such a compression of chakra isn’t a normal and easy thing to do. it’s a very high level technique! it could kill orochimaru!! so, you can’t possibly assume that a genin can perform such technique. you shouldn’t forget that naruto got his hands burnt when he learned the rasengan! imagine what might have happened if he highly compressed it! konohamaru hasn’t lost his hands yet, has he?

    2. the confusion of the density of chakra in kono’s ball arose from the fact that he possibly killed one of the pain’s body. just think of it this way: a child says he will fight you and you say “what the heck? he won’t even hurt me!” and you agree. you are winning at first (obviously) and then suddenly the kid gives you a punch in your balls…what do you do? no matter how less powerful the shot is, you fall to the floor, right? that’s exactly what happened there! “that pain” wasn’t ready for such a high level technique from that kid. he wasn’t taking him seriously and so when he got hit by a A-level technique, it took him by surprise rather than power!

    there are 3 steps in rasengan: rotation, power, and i forgot the last one!
    so, there’s no way that konohamaru could create a technique similar to rasen-shuriken. you might say, “it’s nowhere near rasen-shuriken but you are forgetting one thing, the 4th created rasengan and any advanced modification to it (here it was able to defeat a pain too) means it’s similar to rasen-shuriken!

    wow! that’s useless knowledge! anyways, that’s what i feel…
    p.s. : i wasn’t the one who first said that “jiraiya’s balls were huge and so the size of balls is all that matters”…it was someone else…i take no credit for that!

  5. i remember now….step 3 is “stop” (that’s what konohamaru said in the last manga 428…) maybe meaning you need to focus on getting the shape of the ball uniform…that’s all…it’s not compression (correct me if i am wrong)

  6. if the big one is as dense as the small one..then the big will win all the time.

  7. Ibi cool post!

  8. damn..in the poll i want to choose the first 5!!!!!!!!

  9. oh! just read the title…
    Yes! if konohamaru can do it, so can i!!! i definitely have got bigger balls!

  10. Great post as always. I don’t have much more to add, as I feel well represented in the post. Mollie is it now? Well that tells me that you’re probably Irish, and that would explain why size wouldn’t matter to you (Irish curse). By the way I’m a Bryan, and have a ethnic right to make Irish jokes. We did save civilization after all. But I digress. Great post, I hope Kishi, or perhaps the anime clears things up for us.

  11. haha bryan im ryan… renzy is supposed to sound like ryan z if you sound it out right

  12. how does renzy sound like ryan? *scratches his head and falls dead due to over thinking*

  13. Nice to meetcha Bryan and Ryan. Mollie is a family name, and I am Irish. The irony is, that name actually came from my Indian (uh, Native American) grandmother. She was known only as Indian Molly, nice huh?

  14. Nice post! It’s more comprehensive than anything I’ve seen on the subject, so props to you for putting all that mess together LOL

    I agree with whoever said chakra compression is what makes a Rasengan powerful (Erosennin, I think). Jiraiya made that abundantly clear, for starters, and we can also look at this using examples other than Rasengan. There’s the 4-Tails Naruto/Orochimaru fight, as already mentioned, as well as Chidori. I don’t have the source material to quote, but it was always my understanding that Kakashi was compressing his chakra to create that lightning effect, which would support Erosennin’s theory since a normal lightning jutsu wouldn’t be nearly as powerful. It also took Sasuke the entire interval between the Chuunin exam stages 2-3 to learn Chidori, which means learning to compress your chakra is both difficult and something not many ninjas can do (hence the “A” level jutsu status of both). I hope some of this helps ._.

  15. phew! someone that supports me! thanks elfarren…that’s exactly what i wanted to say….chidori and rasengan are very high level techniques….we should be glad that konohamaru made rasengan at least….size doesn’t matter at all…konohamaru gave 3 years and with such a short experience on chakra control and manipulation, that was more than he could possibly create….
    again, intending to point out that konohamaru is weak and the small rasengan is a demonstration of his weakness and not the extraordinary talent hidden in him(as if)

  16. ok! i was wrong on one thing…the primary concept of rasengan is “concentration of chakra in palm”…sorry about that…i just started watching naruto after manga chapter 420…so, i must have missed the earlier chapters…
    still, i did note a fact that the amount of chakra is already condensed and further condensation of it would do no good…(refer to the video no #4) jiraiya mentions that “if you can concentrate the chakra just to the palm of your hand, it will have the greater spin…well, just condensing the ball without adding anymore chakra to it, thus, would prove pointless….
    though there can be an argument that “radius decreases…momentum remains the same…spin increases” (physics law) but i don’t think kishi is that wise….he doesn’t even hold the ground of naruto-universe which he created….i doubt that he cares for physics at all…

  17. I like the name Mollie!!well at least it sounds better than mine..hehe^^nice to meet u Bryan and Ryan and Mollie..!I’m Xenia:)

  18. Hi, my names Jeremiah… Wait… You guys already knew that…

    @_@

    Very cool post… ^_^

  19. @ pain/micro – lmao at u equating a punch in the balls to an A rank technique! ^_^ That is money!

    I would like to point out a translation difference in the manga. In the original back when he was actually learning it, the third step was to concentrate the ball. Sleepy fans recently translated the third step as “stop” in the flash back. This translation difference could be messing some people up.

  20. Lmao what is this the introduction post. Hi my name is Edward but you can call me ed, eddie, eduardo, murph or pimp (dont ask). Yeah it seems the irish like anime since I am also irish…kinda. Well my family lived in nyc for like three generation so I dont know of any family in ireland.

    P.S happy to say I was not hit by the irish curse ^_^.

  21. As to who’s would win, that is just too easy to answer… Kakashi, Jiraiya and Kono are all on the first stage Rasengan with Jiraiya at 1.5 with “ultimate rasengan”. Naruto is for sure Rasengan 2.0 with an element added which he was the first to do, possibly 3.0 depending if that is what he was doing in frog land that tore up those mountains. So my list would go:

    4. Kono
    3. Kakashi
    2. Jiraiya
    1. Naruto

  22. My biggest question isn’t whether it’s stronger or how fast he learned it but how well he executed it on his first time. A lot of people got pissed at me because I said that Kono did a better Naruto than Naruto did Naruto.

    In a few smooth moves he shadow clone fooled Naraka Pain, found out his power and distracted him so that he and his clone could pwn Naraka Pain from behind. Very slick for a first time run with a powerful oponent.

  23. I personal just feel that konohamuru dosen’t generate enough chakra to create a full rasengun. Remember when naruto completed the second step? Jiraya was immpressed by the amount of chakra and that it was so co centrated that it burnt naruto hand. Konohamuru can’t do that intill he builds a deeper chakra pool to draw from. So konohamuru will little balls intill he get older, around 16 to 18 years old till he can truly do rasengun.

  24. @Jeremiah: exactly. I was about to step in here and remind everyone to go look at those flashbacks again. (NO! Not because they’re pervy…lol). When I did, I realized Kono had his CLONE have those flashbacks as a way to distract his dictator. I think the dialogue is Pain reading the clones thoughts. STOP is Pain stopping the flashback and demanding a response to his question.

  25. Jeremiah I don’t think anyone is dought that konohamuru is smart than naruto, he’s a surotubi being a genius ninja runs in there family, so of course konohamuru is a better statagist at that age. But when naruto did the the rasengun for the first time it was more spactacular and he did to save the fifth’s life and the way naruto got off the rasen-shurakin, konohamuru can’t compete with that. It just hurts when u say that!

  26. I dunno about it being more spectacular. The first one against Kabuto is on the top left of the Naruto pics, the second on the top right. I think the first one looks a little loose (like when J-man first show Naruto the jutsu). I will agree that the second one is incredible.

    Konohamaru did Naruto better than Naruto–using the clones, letting Pain read some distracting thoughts and hitting hard…all while Ebisu is, like, WTF?! is he doing? That’s not to diss Naruto, just that Kono understands and can emulate his battle style really well.

  27. how about the 4th could he be like number 2 or 3 wat you think n my name is enzo donchaknow

  28. @ lizard – I would think that Minato would be second because Naruto did something no one had done before, he added an element. That being said, Minato died young and hadn’t completed the jutsu yet so who knows what he could have done with more time…

  29. @ Eddie – funny that you’re Irish cause I’ve known your name since like day one when you posted as Eddie on that what anime character are you post. I just put 2 and 2 together…

    Dude named Eddie that lives in New York = 98% chance of Italian haha!

    I’m a mut. Scottish, Irish, Dutch, Nor, Viking… HAHA ^_^

  30. I’m totally spamming right now, so I apologize for that but I just thought of something else. Someone had mentioned that Rasengan tore up Naruto’s arm/hand, so that was an indicator of Kono’s power in regards to his Rasengan. But this actually has no bearing because Rasengan didn’t tear up Naruto’s arm/hand. It was after he added the element to it and was calling it Rasen Shuriken that it started tearing up his arm/hand.

  31. @Jeremiah: Spam? pfffft. And, btw, I was hoping for a big ol’ Maito Guy tribute in here with a tooth sparkle and all. Are you holding out on us? Didn’t you promise we’d be sick of it?

    So, rasengan (regular old vanilla flavored rasengan) vs. 8th gate…who wins? ^.^

  32. Hi i am Alex but i go by Alec just cause… I am pure Aryan, but i won’t hold that against you inferior persons… yet…

    and of course the answer to the question to who has the biggest balls… me, duh -_-…

  33. so i just have to throw in my 2 cents on this subject and here it comes.

    The rasengan’s strength is completely reliant on the amount of chakra you can force into the ball and rotate in a perfect spiral while using a small shell to contain that “typhoon”. When naruto trained for his bet against Tsunade he forced massive amounts of chakra into his palm but it he was never able to perfectly contain it in a spherical shell like you need and thus it barely penetrated the trees and scorched his hands. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/162/04/

    The pervy sage told naruto it was all about keeping the chakra’s power rotating in a perfect shell to make it effective, if it manages to stay condensed it will no doubt strike through any attack. So with that thinking you could say the size does matter, but only if the larger one contains a greater focus of chakra and rotation. as seen in the pervy sage’s fight with pain http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/13/

    If the size of the sphere didn’t matter why would he have even thought to use so much power on 1 attack? all I gotta say is if you’ve got the balls to pull off the technique you might as well show how big your balls are and make it a big one.

  34. so i just have to throw in my 2 cents on this subject and here it comes.

    The rasengan’s strength is completely reliant on the amount of chakra you can force into the ball and rotate in a perfect spiral while using a small shell to contain that “typhoon”. When naruto trained for his bet against Tsunade he forced massive amounts of chakra into his palm but it he was never able to perfectly contain it in a spherical shell like you need and thus it barely penetrated the trees and scorched his hands. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/162/04/

    The pervy sage told naruto it was all about keeping the chakra’s power rotating in a perfect shell to make it effective, if it manages to stay condensed it will no doubt strike through any attack. So with that thinking you could say the size does matter, but only if the larger one contains a greater focus of chakra and rotation. as seen in the pervy sage’s fight with pain http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/13/

    If the size of the sphere didn’t matter why would he have even thought to use so much power on 1 attack? all I gotta say is if you’ve got the balls to pull off the technique you might as well show how big your balls are and make it a big one.

  35. Maaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiitooooooooooo Gaaaaaiiiiii!

  36. Gai Sensei The Awesome

    part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsEGO8sL7Xo

    Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd1VFWR4dvs&feature=related

    And the very funny super naruto dub

  37. @pain haha ryan Z the z is kinda important

  38. my neighbor when he was little couldnt say ryan z so just said renzy…. and size does matter… im pretty sure every one has a valid point, the rasengan will work at any size just fine, it just needs to have extreme rotation and it needs to be condensed, but still the bigger the stronger… i think everything is important and it wouldnt be that effective if one peice was missing, its all three combined that make the jutsu

  39. Maito Gai + eight gates + rasengan = armageddon, and no Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck, you can’t stop this one…

  40. McGyver could stop him with a toothpick and a piece of string

  41. add some gum and some urine, with a vitamin c capsule, he blows up all of the land of fire…

  42. Yeah, but Swayze could stop him with a look.

  43. @ renzy – so you think that Jiraiya’s rasengan is stronger than Naruto’s with the element added? Or even stronger than what ever he’s done to it to destroy those mountains in frog land? I think it’s more about what you put into it, rather than size.

  44. it’s not the size of the ship, it’s the motion of the ocean…

  45. Amen, brotha Alec. ^.^

    @Dave: nicely done back there, BTW.

  46. You all are talking nonsense…
    It was stupid for kono to use the rasengan in the first placy, whatever the power of it be,
    if he had stuck to his vocation as a perv, the fight would have nbeen over, All he had to do was the ultimate sexy techinique
    then==>

    CASE 1

    1)Pain vs kono over(dies from blood loss)
    2)Konoha saved(they found out pains weakness)
    3)Hokage’s Duty(106 baby!!Flash em!)
    4)End of pain(due to above mentioned Hokage’s duty)
    😉

    hope i was able to prove something that wasnt related to any of this at all but i wanted to say something anyway

    CASE 2-

    With your powers combined, i am CAPTAIN PLANET!

    CASE 3-

    SWAYZE AWAY!!!

  47. lastscorpion…thx…those were funneh.

  48. I may be on the same page as Anonymous Dave up there. I assumed that Naruto’s messy rasengan burned his hand because it was, well, messy. Not kept safely in the ball.

    Oh, and add another Irish/Native American girl, Maureen.

  49. @jerimiah haha sorry i havent been on in a couple days but i was just talking about the plain rasengan before it has an element added to it… narutos rasenshuriken is clearly stronger than an ordinary rasengan

  50. wow i looked… almost exactly a day but it felt like 3 or 4

  51. Jiraya’s rasengan is larger and he’s a sannin,so,unless Kono even tops a legendary ninja,i vote for superior power by size.
    Of compression derives superior speed,more concetrated damage.From a big Rasengan,damage is superior,but less killer in a focus point,more destructive to the all individual,but less damaging in just a point(like odama Rasengan:bigger,it destroyed the environment and killed the guy,but didn´t effectively harmed him in a specific point.).

  52. like yuyu hakusho (i doubt if this one is right) eugene’s raygun ( which is small but concentrated) passed trough schui’s power ball which is defenitely bigger.
    but we are i naruto. i think size really matters here. just like the unltimate rasengan. it is bigger than regular rasengan. ang the fuuton;rasenshuriken. at first, narito was only able to make a small one, then against kakuzu, he wwas able to make a big on and that one is definitely stronger and more powerful. konos balls are small simply to show the difference of the rasengan that a great and skilled shinobi can make (like jiraiya, kakashi, yondaime. well, except naruto.)

  53. Another example:Rasengan strength derives from the speed it’s content swirls,right?More compressed the sphere is,smaller the path of the swirl and stronger.However,it is the chakra that swirls.So,in significant proportions,although it is slower,the power can be as effective or more than the other small rasengan if in a bigger sphere,an incredible amount is swirling:although the size rises,chakra amount is still superior and can do as much or more power depending on the chakra concentration.

  54. well….to compound all your theories, lets put it like this-

    If you were to consider the gaseous planets as rasengans….who would do the most damage

    A jupiter rasengan, or a neptune/uranus rasengan

    Remember guys, all we’ve been talking about is chakra spinning, what we havn’t mentioned is that the chakra spins in RANDOM directions, a jupiter rasengan has more surface are for all the random currents as compare to the uranus/neptune one.
    Plus ero-sennin was right(i think it was ero-sennin…) in his theory about different rotation speeds oat different depths in the rasengan. so according to this theory, kono’s rasengan shouls pwn jiraiya’s LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan, IF it was the case of unidirectional rotation.In the case of the multidirectional rotation, i’m guessin’ it should pwn him even harder but somehow the lack of the actual surface are for hinder him smhow(i havnt actually though any of this out….i’m just writning what comes to mind while my curson got stuck in the leave a reply section…so feel free to critcise my theory)
    But we also hve to look at the aspect that Jiraiya actually OPTED for that LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan instead of a konolike shortball…hope i gave some foood for thought…

  55. eeerm ok its 3 steps spin power and compresion… lets say that diferent spin gives rasengan diferent power… compresion keeps all the power inside the sphere bla bla.. but there a big fact… POWER… thats to the user.. konohamaru cannot add the same power as naruto and naruto as jiraya… Power is a fact that differs the rasengans from user to user… The teqnique is the same the power only difers…

  56. I’ve been reading this blog for a while now, and this post alone was enough to get to finally spend ten minutes to get a wordpress account.

    There are points people keep bringing up, such as: “Jiraiya’s Ultimate Rasengan is huge, so compression mustn’t matter”

    I think people are forgetting that this is Jiraiya, he wouldn’t just make a huge rasengan like that without taking his OWN advice. of course it’s compressed, if it wasn’t it’d be even bigger, but less powerful.

    I think that all of the three steps are just as important, and that the only reason why Kono’s is smaller is becuase he has less chakra.

    As to the question of who’s would win i believe it’s the Ultimate Rasengan, becuase let’s face it, Jiraiya isn’t going to leave the chakra to spin slowly, he’s good enough to make it spin quickly even though it’s huge, i see it as a normal rasengan, with the only difference being more chakra involved.

  57. Lets put this all into perspective.

    Chakra amount, spin, and compression ALL makes the Rasengan more powerful.

    So whoever is able to put the MOST chakra in, spin it the fastest, AND compress it the most would ultimately have the strongest Rasengan.

    That said, how do we know which one of them is able to do all three steps efficiently?

    For example, if Naruto used a TON of chakra for his Rasengan, it would be harder to compress it as small as Konohamaru’s. But what if Konohamaru used as much chakra as Naruto yet still managed to make it smaller? Then it would be stronger.

    Jiraiya’s huge Rasengan could be result of an enormous amount of chakra, or could be lack or compression.

    All in all, we don’t really know which one is better unless Kishi tells us so. All I know is that the Shuriken Rasengan beats any regular Rasengan. ^_^

  58. Edit: I meant “lack of compression” instead of “lack or compression”.

  59. Thanks for the kind words, elasticatednin, and thanks for getting official.

    I’m enjoying reading everyone’s thoughts, so thanks for posting them.

  60. Personally, I think it’s cool that Kono learned rasengan. I’d like to see where and when Naruto taught him.

  61. this seems so simple… but its so difficult because there are the three different factors that you hafta toy with, and we dunno which is most important… but i think we can all agree the more chakra that is put in the bigger, if the other two are held at a constant, the bigger one wins… but who really knows how consistent all the steps are from user to user which totally sucks ass but whatevs haha

  62. I had said in the regular post that Kishi seems to like to knock Naruto down a peg just before letting him reaffirm that he is the hero of this series. So, I guess I can’t be too pissed. It should only mean that Naruto is about to come back more bad ass than ever. Although, I will say that if the ramen noodle guy uses the Rasengan to stir the noodles then I’m out. (yes I did see the anime where Naruto helps him win the cook off)

    @Ms.Mandi: Like’n the ATHF icon.

  63. @ Ms Mandi – lolz! Ur icon is awesomeness. Kalis would be proud ^_^

  64. @ Kishi seems to like to knock Naruto down a peg just before letting him reaffirm that he is the hero of this series. So, I guess I can’t be too pissed. It should only mean that Naruto is about to come back more bad ass than ever

    I totally agree. You know if Kishi is making something Naruto can do into childsplay Naruto is about to do something completely reeking of awesomeness!

    And thanks, I love this Icon!

  65. Maybe Rasengan is about proportionallity (sorry the bad english,i’m portuguese).To a certain amount of chakra corresponds,without changes,a different size;so,a different proportion on the compression.

    Yes!Rasengan is all about compressing the most chakra in the smaller sphere to spin the chakra faster!But this doesn’t mean Konohamaru’s is stronger:it has smaller chakra contained in it,SO IT IS EASIER FOR HIM TO COMPRESS IT AND MAKING IT SPIN BETTER.HOWEVER,IT LACKS THE CHAKRA nARUTO AND JIRAYA HAVE,THAT IS STRONGER AND HARDER TO COMPRESS,BUT STILL CAUSES MORE DAMAGE(SEE SOME OF MY POSTS ABOVE AND YOU’LL KNOW WHAT I MEAN).

  66. Maybe more chakra means more speed.

  67. how about this…all of what we ahev theorised doesn’t mean a cent!

    #We have No IDEA which is better,

    #we have no idea of the actual difference in chakra lvls

    #we have no idea of the proprtional effects of the compression, speed and power in the rasengans attacking prowess(meaning a rasengan the size of a pinhead could do more than jiraiya’s LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan, in a certain situation)

    #we have no Idea what the jiraiya’s LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan actually can do as it was drunk up by pain like a shot of bourbon

    #we have no idea of what viscosity gradients the different ayers of chakra posses

    #we have no idea of the actual physical traits of chakra(aka it’s fluid mechanics)

    #we have no idea if compression is proportional to spin(though if you think of the theory of conservation of angular momentum, it seems fine) though we still don’t know the physical traits of chakra so we can’t say anything

    #We dont know if Kishi is a Damn scientist or not to think sooooooooooo deeply into this stuff

    #we don’t know if kishi even cares what is the secret behind the attacking arsenal of the rasengan-
    it could be big is better
    it could be concentrated is better
    it could be that simply jiraiya’s>naruto’s>kono’s
    we dont know if jiraiya’s LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan was any different from naruto’s, it could simply be a normal rasengan scaled up with the same chakra concentration levels, angular velocity(omega)…meaning you take a passport size photo and you get the same photo in a larger size…so comparing jiraiya’s LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan with a normal rasengan is like comparing swayze when he was 10 yrd old to swayze when he was 25…..

    Merry Christmas! ^|^
    and a happy new year!

  68. i think the best argument so far is one made by harshytkage above, which simply states that Jiraiya CHOSE to use ultimate rasengan. He knew at that point how powerful pein was, and chose his attack accordingly, he wasn’t going to chose a less powerful technique to take on one of pein’s bodies, he was going for the attack with the highest probability of a 1-hit-kill, just unluckiy that he chose the fat pein as his first target i suppose.

  69. Another point is that people are saying that Kono learning rasengan is cheapening it somewhat. What we’re forgetting is that rasengan isn’t Naruto’s signiture move anymore, Fuuton-Rasen-Shuriken is, meaning that it doesn’t really matter who knows Rasengan any more, because no one can perform it to the level that Naruto can.

  70. hey! this is really it. if you believe that kono got something and was able to compress rasengan more with the same amount of chackra, that naruto, jiraiya, and kakashi wasn’t able to do, you are simply saying that kono has surpassed the awesomeness shinobies. i can’t accept that. kono is not yet that ripe and ready to be included in our awesomeness shinobies list.

  71. @glen- read my argument above ^|^

  72. i have already read it. but still i’m firm that in this rasengan issue, size realy matters

  73. i just think that telling everybody that we must not take kono’s rasengan too weak is saying that he is on the awesomeness level.

  74. …”meaning you take a passport size photo and you get the same photo in a larger size…so comparing jiraiya’s LARGER-THEN-LIFE-EAT-THIS-PAIN-GOD-MY-FORMER-PUPIL-ASS rasengan with a normal rasengan is like comparing swayze when he was 10 yrd old to swayze when he was 25…..”…

  75. i think the part where you must concentrate your power to make a rasengan is compressing it to the fullest. it’s like matter. normal chakra is like air, you can compress it. once you have compressed it, it will turn to a liquid state. and compressed chakra cant be compressed more. like liquid and solid. they cannot be compressed firthe, if ever, in inconsiderable compression only.

  76. your analogy is confusing. like a photo, you can get a larger one. it’s like your telling that the same makes no effect. it is still the photo just in a larger version.
    –like swayze. i think when you grow up something changes. from 10 to 25 is a very big difference. like goku when he is young and when he grew up.

  77. to whose side are you?

  78. i thik i must go to sleep now. could you just please post your arguments and i’ll just comment back tomorrow.

  79. lol…nighty night glen//

    the main argument that i make aka the side which i’m on is that it’s OBVIOUS that the rasengan’s order is Jiraiya>Naruto>kono

    nfin else….the main topic of my post abv was to say that there are too many variables to consider while theorising about these things…or maybe there are too many theories abt too many variables or smfin…so i’m on your side

    May the power of swayze rest within you…

  80. Moderation? Not Agaijn!!!

  81. I think I saw an episode of the anime where J-man told Naruto that the longer the chakra spins the more powerful it gets. So maybe it’s length and not size that matters? If you can wrap your head around that!

  82. Also I would like to complain that there is no randomness to the Swayze or Captian Planet comments anymore. It used to be alot funnier when we as readers got hit with it out of nowhere. Now it seems there can’t be a post without a side referance.
    So with that said the only people that can take down the 6 paths of pain is the “Biioonic, Bionic Six oohh oh yeah”. Boom randomness! And Randomness = Awesomeness!

  83. It has probably been stated somewhere higher up in this post, but rasengan is simply being generalized as an A-Rank shape manipulation jutsu. Any ninja properly trained in the techniques to control their chakra could produce this jutsu. Actually Sakura has been noted several times to have the best chakra control of the members in team 7 (Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura). She would probably be able to produce this jutsu as well, if trained properly.

    As noted by Kakashi, he developed chidori as his own lower level version of what the 4th Hokage was attempting to complete. This combined a high level nature jutsu with a low level shape manipulation jutsu. Rasengan was simply to high a level for him to combine his nature manipulation jutsu with.

    Making rasengan generic is a good thing. You guys should be getting tired of that being the defacto finishing move for all the pre-shippuden era mangas. This opens the door for bigger and better jutsu to replace the outdated rasengan and passes it down to a younger generation to develop as a foundation for other S-Ranked jutsu later in their ninja careers.

    If time-lines were moved forward, we might see rasengan combined with water, earth, fire, and lightning nature chakras. This could create new evolutions of powerful jutsu used by shinobi of the leaf village.

    As Kakashi stated it’s almost time for the next generation of ninjas to take over the running of the leaf village. He also stood over a dying Hidan and stated “The next generation will always surpass the previous one and take their place.” The rasengan being passed down to another younger leaf ninja (Konohamaru) is ensuring this lineage of power in the village and the potential for some real power house jutsu in future chapters.

    Rasengan has evolved to a foundational tool that will be used to build bigger jutsu for our main character and others around him he trains.

    Another small question, how many other squad captains, elders, or anbu members know how to produce the rasengan?
    I bet you Danzo knows the jutsu.
    I bet Captain Yamato could do it if he tried.
    I bet the Hyuga clan’s elder members can produce it.

    We know of 5 who can produce it now. Jiraiya, Kakashi, Naruto, the 4th Hokage, and Konohamaru. A jutsu that 5 different leaf ninja have in their arsenal definitely shows it is attainable by any that train to use the technique.

    So we shouldn’t feel we are being cheated because another leaf ninja has learned the jutsu. This means Kishi is making a hole for bigger things to replace it.

  84. I know the final section sounds like blasphemy, but remember it took us all the way to chapter 321 to even learn that Kakashi had the capability. How many others older shinobi simply haven’t had the opportunity to display it to the reader or have chosen not to make it their trump card and rely on their blood limits.

  85. @ orion…. I think it stays in the teacher / student line. J-man, 4th, Kakashi, Naruto and Kono. Remember Naruto was teaching Kono before Kono became a Genin.

  86. But, anyone trained to use the technique could produce it. It is not specialized to Naruto because he is the 4th’s son or has the Nine Tails. The main point I was making is people upset about Konohamaru attaining the jutsu shouldn’t be shocked. He looks up to Naruto and this is the second technique passed from Naruto down to Konohamaru, the first being the sexy no jutsu.

  87. Somewhere in there would be shadow clones, too.

  88. Next on the agenda, Konahamaru producing a S-Ranked Jutsu in his next five to seven years of growth.

    Konahamaru skill set:
    Can make Shadow Clones = CHECK
    Can make Rasengan = CHECK
    What happens if he learns nature manipulation????

    That is a recipe for the next S-Ranked Jutsu like Naruto’s rasen-shuriken. If Naruto lives long enough I bet he will pass those skill down to him also.

    I do not know Konahamaru’s chakra’s nature affinity, probably Wind like his uncle or what ever the 3rds nature chakra was (He used water and earth against Orochimaru). My imagination can’t comprehend what the other nature manipulations would look like when combined with a spherical rasengan. Maybe you guys can imagine cooler stuff than I came up with.

    Lightening + Rasengan = ? Ball Lightning
    Fire + Rasengan = ? Small Super Nova
    Earth + Rasengan = ? A granite spinning drill like Gurren Lagann
    Water + Rasengan = ? A disk capable of cutting through anything, like that disk that Krillin made in DBZ

    A side thought that runs through my brain from time to time is…..
    I would have thought Naruto’s big power would have been combining Wind nature, Water Nature and a diffuse rasengan creating the Hurricane that Shippuden translates to. He could affect entire villages in the fire country causing flooding, famine, structural damage, economic devastation, disease, and leveling cities with 150mph+ winds. This would literally crush an entire villages ability to maintain power. The I stop and think how anti-climatic that would be. It would not make for good reading, but it would potentially kill thousands within a given village.

  89. I don’t think you can make a lighting or earth or water rasengans cause that would just be weird, but in the video games (an underrated source of info on sick techniques) Jiraya does use a fire rasengan and though it dosn’t do much on contact, once it breaks it’s protective chakra shell it explodes in a giant column of spinning flame destrroying pretty much everything…

  90. Naruto is going to make a wind/water rasengan, I think, in the not too distant future.

  91. Konos rasengan was most likely small because the lack of chakra, not because he can compress it better than J-man, Kakashi, or Naruto. Not to say that it wasn’t deadly or impressive, but the others have a big reservoir of chakra to pull from, Narutos the biggest. Mind you I will not be 100% certain until we see Kono use it more in the manga. Until then though I feel this the most plausible.

    Happy Holidays

  92. let’s rename rasengan to trashengan should we orion, not flaming, just saying that you’re generalising the concept a bit too much.

    (P.S.- i actually agree with you, but i don’t hve the ablls to admit it ^^)

  93. Ranish….we have no idea of kono’s chakra reserves….just read my what we dont know post a little higher up

  94. Ranish, good to see you. When I did pulled this post together, you were first to predict Kono would whip out rasengan, two issues before he did (way back on 11/30). Kudos.

  95. does this mean we’re not gonna die?

  96. i am sorry i just feel like spamming all over the internet and wait for someone to arrest me
    also, i am dropping down naruto for good. it’s become so lame and the last chapter (431) nearly made me puke. naruto is shown stonger than a sannin. he treats the stongest sannin like a kid. i felt so down when he insulted tsunade’s weakness. she spent all her chakra to save the city and then he says have some tea, granny. at that moment i felt like i would kill him if i was there. just because he is strong now doesn’t mean that he can treat other like rubbish. and he didn’t even get angry when he figured out kakashi’s dead. that broke my heart:-(. naruto is going nowhere. the useless attacks and the new super human strength won’t do naruto any good. i believe that by letting naruto get so rubbishly powerful mashashi kishimoto has ruined my favorite manga. well, i will wait for Vampire Knights to show up and bleach is good too.

  97. RRRRRAAAAAAAAssssSSSSSEEEEEEEENNNNnnnnnnNNnNNNnnnnnnnnnnngggGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAsaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanNnnnnnnnnnnnNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  98. Okay first off i see that Mollie forgot that the 4th should also be considered a Rasengan ….he should…. but moving on you guys are trying to analyze the rasengan from what the manga says and the pictures made for it… its not realistic enough unless one of you guys can make a rasengan and can come show it to me …. =|

    but if you take all of it in context you come into this conclusion …. While 5 known people can use it by far the weakest has to be konos because he still is a genin and probably doesnt have the the chakra and still struggles to even get it to his opponent…

    next would have to be the 4th’s while he did invent it and he was a genius he didnt have the input that jariaya, kakashi and naruto have of time… since he dies relatively soon after he created it.

    Next would probably be kakashi while he can do it and it seems to be formidable he just cant compare to jariaya or naruto because he CANNOT go into sage mode! …

    Sage mode is a big factor since it is like a shinobi on steroids …. this leads to the question which one is stronger jariaya or naruto and while im tempted to say jariaya we have to look at context!!!!

    lets take their strongest form… Jariaya’s Spirit Bomb Rasengan Vs. Naruto’s Rasen Shuriken… and even though jariaya’s is freaking huge i think it still lacks power because he cant go throwing it around like naruto’s rasen shuriken im sure that if they were to go at it the rasen shuriken would just cut through the spirit bomb rasengan because of naruto’s addition of chakra type into it making it a whole new beast …

    So if anyone Wins its Naruto!

  99. @ triwolf – Being a Gennin has nothing to do with it… what rank is Naruto?

    The 4th is considered a Rasengan user but it has never shown him in action using it in the manga and I’m not going to start drawing manga so he wasn’t included in the pic that Ibi put together.

    If we only discuss things that you can be shown by me in person then we can’t discuss anything… and that’s not really fun. Can I create a Black Hole for you so that you examine it… nope. But we can look at pictures of black holes and discuss it using facts that we know about black holes and applying logic.

    This post was also written a while back and was pre sage mode Naruto Rasengan so stuff has changed that the author of post didn’t include because it didn’t happen yet.

    Thanks for the comment ^_^

  100. This topic was before he could confirmed throw it. I think all points have been made. It is no contest that currently naruto is the Rasengan King. (I mean up to this point. only one who can surpass him is kono, and that makes me lol sooooo much.)

    There were some good comments here. though this topic is pretty much over, what if kono makes a sexy no rasegan? sorry, i’ll leave quietly…

  101. @ ajd – I agree, until or if Kono progresses, this post is archive.

  102. POST ARCHIVED
    CONSIDER DELETED UNTIL KONO PROGRESSES TO SEXY NO RASENGAN
    SYSTEM SHUT DOWN

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