Theory Post: Jiraiya, Ying/Yang, Madara, Akatsuki… you name it, its covered.

Ahhhh… The theory post.  The post that was promised 2 weeks ago but was pushed aside by my final exams.  So quickly time passes when you have so much to do.

As promised, I picked the 3 best submissions for the theory post and here they are in no particular order by: Elfarren, a new comer with a focused and common sensed based style; Renzy, a writer who falls pray to the same insecurities that I do over using “…” and “lol” and “HAHA” with in his writing and lastly the talented fanfic writer/Editor of iareawesomeness, Ibikiteishi. Followed by bonus predictions that cover almost every aspect of the manga, from the Ying/Yang 9tailed chakra to who shot JFK by your resident theory nut job Alec who serves up heavy doses of “thus” and “this” for your prediction lovin ass.  He basically gave the structure of the prediction survey the finger and said F it, “I’ll ride this bitch like a rented mule and see what it produces.”  I think his brain just vomitted onto his computer, awesomess… Click HERE if you don’t remember the questions that they are answering… Alec is answering the voices in his head… (I’m just giving him a hard time cause he is an OG on this blog and I wouldn’t have posted it, if I didn’t like it, so enjoy ^_^

Name : Elfarren

 
1.) “That” jutsu is definitely not the Rasengan.  I say that because at the start of part two, Jiraiya tells Naruto not to use “that” jutsu right before he goes off to help save Gaara.  That happens before Naruto learns wind manipulation and before Jiraiya mentions it to the toad before his fight against Pain.  If anything, I think “that” jutsu will be something from Jiraiya’s arsenal that he teaches Naruto, much like Kakashi teaching Sasuke Chidori.  Looking back on Jiraiya’s fights against Itachi/Kisame and Pain, I’d even wager to guess that it’s got to do with toads or his hair-based jutsu (Needle Jizo).
2.  The main point to look at here is that Kishimoto made sure to say the Yang chakra has been sealed away.  Yang is the masucline side, and Ying the feminine, so if tweaking the masculine side’s seal brought out four-tails Naruto, what do you think would happen if it was all released?  It doesn’t take a great leap of imagination to see Minato must have realized a child could never contain such power, which is why he makes a key.  When the time is right and Naruto has enough control over himself and his emotions, he’ll use the key to unleash his full potential.  My only other theory here is that each kind of chakra possesses its own capabilities.  If sage chakra strengthens spiritual and physical chakra, I’m sure Kishimoto has broken down the “rules” of Naruto’s universe even more, and that we’ll be finding out what Ying vs. Yang chakra is all about sooner than later.
3.) Madara strikes me as “the man behind the curtain” in many respects.  Let’s run down the list of things he’s done that have directly influenced the storyline so far: A. he helped found Konoha, B. he released the Demon Fox, acting as the catalyst for Naruto becoming a Jinchuriki, and C. he helps Itachi kill the Uchiha clan, setting Sasuke on the path for revenge.
How he’s still alive after so many years aside, it’s very plain to see that Madara is like a fulcrum which tips the ninja world from side to side, and as such, he must have some pretty amazing abilities we haven’t seen yet.  I have no idea what they could be, but Madara is the true antagonist of the series at this point, so I’m sure Kishimoto won’t disappoint.
 

Renzy:

1) ok “that” jutsu its clearly something the fourth never completed… hes either talking about his space/time jutsu or one weve never seen, the space/time he could only utilize if he knew exactly where he was going or if one of his special kunai was thrown but the way i see this is it was probably just extremely high speed movement… or maybe some sort of super wind jutsu i dont really know what it would do though lol
2) my guess is it is probably madara he may have known that madara was still alive somehow… maybe he saw him during gaiden haha but madara had control over the kyuubi, so if naruto can control its chakra combined with his own and sage which im sure minato would know jiraiya would teach naruto some toad stuff and eventually put him through the sage training, he could beat madara… possibly with “that” jutsu, maybe it beats sharingan somehow lol
3) seeing as how oro was in akatsuki and he desperately wanted the sharingan, why would he leave because he was scared of itachi? maybe he had knowledge of madara and madara wanted itachis eyes as well… that could have scared him away, jiraiya did travel a lot maybe he managed to see or learn about madara through word of mouth oro did have the whole sound village, someone must have known something, also who would have taught oro the body transfer technique?… another reason would be jiraiya must have known a lot about the history of konoha. who were the only 2 to be able to control the kyuubi? madara(whos body never showed up after he was “killed”) and the first who was a hokage so im sure his body was buried…
extended kinda haha… madara became mizukage (hidden mist) yahiko nagato and konan guess what hidden mist… im sure jiraiya had some knowledge about foreign villages due to his traveling… and if kisame knew madara as a mizukage who else would know? isnt a sharingan hard to hide when you lead a powerful village? someone must have known about it
thats all lol hope you enjoy my little rant ( :
 
 

Ibikiteishi

1.  “That” jutsu.  You’re right, this has nothing to do with rasengan or he would have just called it by name.  When Kakashi takes Naruto on his first mission after time skip, Jiraiya mentions “that” jutsu to Naruto as well.  And he’s just filled Kakashi in about the slipping seal.  My guess is the references are to one and the same thing, the first one a clue to the nature of “that” jutsu and the second one the big ass hammer that says “Wake the F up, reader, this is important.”  It’s a hammer because Jiraiya’s actions and eventual death really underscore this conversation.  To me, “that” jutsu seemed to be a warning not to allow the fox’s chakra to come out.  Something Naruto agrees not to do, but is a little careless about until Sakura gets hurt.  I think J-man and Naruto were working on some sort of merging jutsu, something that starts with Naruto accessing and controlling the fox’s chakra–like a sage technique only with the fox, completely uncharted territory.  My guess is, this is something completely unique that only *begins* this way, and has several steps to be mastered before it actually shows itself.  (Drawing on Jiraiya’s method of teaching rasengan as a parallel.)  I think the thing Naruto has been working on in the middle of the night is something different, and related to his resengan.  My guess there is he can actually throw the dang thing now.  Although, this mountain leveling jutsu may also just be a step he and Jiraiya had already discussed in how to complete “that” jutsu.   I also think it will have something to do with the other tailed demons. Which leads me to 2.
2.  Yang chakra and Minato’s knowledge of great importance.  I think we’re still uncovering this knowledge.  It has something to do with Madara and the other demons, it also has something to do with Pain and the original badass of the Rinnegan.  Yin and yang represent balance, so part of the shock (I think) of only sealing part of the energy into someone is that the power is lopsided.  A good part of Asian cultural ideals are based on the Confucian principles of balance and moderation.  So far we’ve learned how chakra is “grown” and where it comes from and how it can be controlled.  We’ve learned that it tends to have elemental natures, and a mysterious 6th element is about to be revealed.  Yin and yang energy has been mentioned, but not thoroughly explained.  My guess is once Naruto starts mastering his elemental work (and fire and water will be next, fire because it’s a natural fit with the fox’s chakra, and water because, duh, Sasuke).  Then, somebody’s going to sit him down to talk about yin vs. yang and I’ll have a better guess.  At this point, I think once Naruto can access/control the yang of the fox, it will call the yin, and he’s going to have to struggle for a bit with balance.  This is just another step in the path toward mastering “that” jutsu.  I also think that this pull of yin will bring the other tails to him, so  that no matter what Pain and/or Madara have planned to do with the beasts, Naruto’s going to be able to control them once he finally completes “that” jutsu.  Not just from badass attacks, but from the power of the jutsu itself.
3.  Madara’s longevity is a mystery.  And I can’t say I really like Tobito theories, but I think I prefer them to “he just zapped himself from then to now with his magic time shifting jutsu.”  Pardon me…must barf.  Somehow time is being bent, or Uchiha has a cryo tank or Madara is possessing bodies (a la Oro) to live impossibly long.  Time shifting gets too weird for me, and it blows up too much reality for me to think about it seriously for too long.  I start thinking, F it, someone go back and fetch Minato from before he died, Sakumo, Jiraiya, Sarutobi, Asuma…and build a time jump army and be done.  blech.  Hibernation?  Okay, possible.  A stasis jutsu?  Seems like it would need a support team…and maybe this is why Uchiha was systematically exterminated by orders from the top?  Of course, if Madara had the power to invade, possess and exploit compatible bodies…the physical nature of his survival starts to be explainable.  And, damn it, it puts me back thinking about Tobito (seriously, I want to kill whoever came up with that theory, because it makes so damn much sense on some levels and just can’t be eliminated by any use of canon).  It also makes the extermination of Uchiha a sensible option.  This is especially true if Minato knew the scale of the threat was big enough to warrant locking a natural disaster inside your newborn son and leaving him an orphan.  AND Itachi was allowed to live, as long as he could procure the MS and defend himself against Madara.  In fact, my guess is the brothers were planned as bait from way back, just to get Tobitodara to make his move.  Jeez, this makes Sasuke fate’s bitch all the way around, almost as much as Naruto.
Okay, that was some serious wind baggery.  Better not light a match for a minute–it’s best to let the hot air difuse.  Or start up a fan.  
 

Alec:

First off J man brings up a point with the yin and the yang chakra being separated.  It sounds as if the yin has been sealed away within the death god technique, and not inside Naruto as previously thought.  The death god takes both the souls of the target and the user, thus making it once it has your soul there is nothing that can be done (as of note it seems human realm is also able to take a person’s soul, but we’ll have to wait and see on that).  Much like sarutobi ended the jutsu with only oro’s arms, Minato could have ended the jutsu with only the yin chakra of the fox being taken. 
This would serve two uses, first it makes the death god happy because even half of the fox is a shit load of energy and probably gave him some indigestion.  The second is that it gives Naruto a shit load of chakra to fall back upon when he’s in a crunch.  The yin chakra is a more docile and softer version of the fox, and though it would more likely cooperate with Naruto, it would be incredibly weaker than full force.  The yang chakra, which would be the stronger more violent side of the fox, would however be much stronger, probably even than full fox because the yin would be there too limit the excess of power the yang would have (almost like averages). 
This would give naruto unbelievable energy, but it is unconstrained as one can see when Naruto goes four tails.  This means that if there were any way to control this chakra it would be stronger and more powerful than the original fox because it lack the constraints of its yin half. 
The advantage to this is it makes Naruto uber powerful, and if anyone were ever to take the fox out of him, there plan would not bear fruit because of the imbalance.  Itachi mentions that the fox must be captured last because it is so powerful that the king of hell statue would fall apart without the other eight tails in it.  The same would happen if only the yang were to be locked inside because of its power and pure evil, it would crumble the statue doing god knows what.  So it would give Naruto a nearly unlimited supply of chakra when channeled and yet if anyone were to take it, it would have a fail-safe. 
In second effect, the jutsu Jiraya refers to, could be the death god once again. Yet this time the death god would take the other half of the fox instead of Naruto’s soul.  Minato might have foreseen that it was indeed Madara and if he indeed were behind the summoning, he would be incredibly powerful and possibly even immortal, thus leaving death god as the only way of truly stopping Madara.  And yet the seal could force the death god to take the fox instead of the summoner’s soul.  Thus ridding the world of both Madara, or whoever was powerful enough to summon the fox and the rest of the fox at the same time.  Thus with the sacrifice of his life, Minato could rid the world of both the fox, and this super powerful villain at some point.
      
A second point goes directly into the control of the fox.  I believe at some point kishi will try to connect the fourth and Itachi together in the plot to get rid of Madara or whomever summoned the fox.  Not directly together though, but a last order Minato left to the elders (mostly Danzo).  The fourth is a very nice and decent person to those close enough to him, but if you were not on his side he was efficiently ruthless and cold hearted.  Notice that his fighting style is quick and direct, he wants it over as soon as possible.  With the lone ninja from the stone for example, and the others (in that entire platoon of fifty ninja, how many do you think he left alive, or in the squad that came to kill Kakashi and rin?). 
Though not a man Danzo would be too proud of, Minato was incredibly cold hearted and ruthlessly efficient with those who opposed the leaf, a style that Danzo would hold as a prime example of what the leaf should be, compared to that of the third.  Minato arrived to the scene late, probably because he was going over last minute plans with the elders in a top-secret meeting.  In which he discussed that only an Uchiha can control the fox, and thus that one must be found and entrusted to help Naruto with the fox. 
The elders agreed to find one (yet they probably went to the extreme when they found their trusty uchiha).  Itachi was found because he was willing to kill his entire family for the village’s sake.  This would be there agent to help Naruto control the fox.  As a note, the fourth had no idea as to whom they would pick (itachi was only like 5 years old), or how but he did tell them that an uchiha must be found.  On another tangent, this would be the threat that itachi held against the leaf.  Not only would he come back to the leaf if they harmed saskue, but also he would release the rest of the fox and destroy the entire village.  This is something the elders would fear, not only was itachi probably the third or fourth strongest the village had ever produced, but he would have the fox which no one would be able to fight. 
And thus Danzo could not harm saskue and finish the Uchiha, and he could not kill Naruto because he was the one person who could eventually rise up and stop madara.  This would explain Itachi’s warning that he would hope that Naruto would never need the help of the power because that would mean that madara has finally attacked the leaf and that the only way is to release the violent and nearly uncontrollable side of the fox, which is last minute because even if you were to stop Madara, the fox could get loose and finish the job anyway.
That’s it for theories on background stuff, lets get to some future predictions.  1) Kakashi gets stopped by his father on his walk of death and told to return and be the hero his friends and master were.  He loses the sharingan as it finally burns out but in the process gives all the chakra it had taken from Kakashi throughout the years, giving the new white fang a new source of energy versus pein (it returns to a normal eye state, never again going sharingan).  Kakashi gets newfound power and all the amazing techniques he has seen but took too much chakra, he can now use and begins to attack pein with increasing power.
2) Tsunade has to die, and if not versus pein, then it will be versus Danzo who commits a coup against Tsunade in her weakened state.  This would be supported by the other two elders, and thus no one can contend Danzo as the new hokage.  Though this would be short lived because Saskue would soon attack, and with the help of Naruto and Sakura would kill (most likely beat the crap out of and leave alive) the elders in order to regain power and avenge their fallen persons. 
They’d have a little get together, but Saskue would leave because he is a douche, jk, he’d leave because he would say that he still has one more man to go after before he can rest in peace about his vengeance on those who betrayed the uchiha.  Sakura would want to fight but Naruto would stop her telling her that there’s no time to fight and they need to rebuild Konoha before they can meet Saskue again.  As they say goodbye, Saskue looks into Naruto’s eyes because he is now more curious about the fox and in front of the gate he sees a key. 
He asks the frog what he’s there for, and the frog hypnotized, says he the key to open up the gate.  Saskue reaches for the key, only to find Itachi’s hand grab his own saying “now is not the time, but soon I’ll reveal everything to you my little brother”, Saskue is then forced out by itachi back to the outside. 
They part ways once again, yet this time with a better feeling then the last two times.  On the way out saskue runs into Kakashi, they briefly exchange some facts, one Saskue notices first that kakashi is no longer wearing a mask, and second that his left eye is no longer a sharingan.  Kakashi then briefly mentions to be careful with Madara, as he fought the first and has survived all these years.  Saskue is surprised he knows, but kakashi says be careful because something isn’t quite right with madara (hints at that he suspects Madara to be obito in some form).  Saskue, then asks one last question, “How strong has he become?”… Kakashi answers that he has surpassed any other living ninja currently in konoha and is right behind saskue, and catching up fast, just like last time, which Kakashi chuckles at the irony.  Saskue smiles and disappears with the rest of hawk.
Later Karin asks if they should have killed naruto then because he might be able to stop Saskue, Saskue says no, that Naruto will be of more help to him in the end then anyone else can foresee at the moment.  Kakashi becomes the sixth hokage, but hands it off to Naruto officially, but volunteers to act as hokage so he can go out and fight Madara and pein, who is still alive because Nagato is still alive.
3)  BONUS!!!:  Kakashi is on the verge of death after the pein fight (he did come back to life, but he kept the sharingan unlike my previous prediction).  Sakura is crying over kakashi and also for the loss of tsunade.  Kakashi says not to worry, take his sharingan (sakura has lost one of her eyes at this point).  Sakura doesn’t want too, but kakashi tells her he won’t need it where he’s going, not to mention that is can still be used for good to help konoha.  With this sakura gains the sharingan, and all that it has seen (a great way of caring info that a dying kakashi has no time to explain), along with sakura’s more chakra, she can use it w/out wearing out as quick.  Kakashi’s last words are to protect Naruto, get saskue back, and protect the village in the way kakashi never was able too.
Now that was short-range predictions, the next few will be for future arcs.
1) Kabuto will at some point help the leaf because he has always been back in forth with what he wants to do.  He also highly respects Naruto and will no doubt help him defeat Akatsuki in some way.  But he will return as a villain near the end of the series, probably the last one too as to show the changing of the generation as Jiraya, Tsunade, Madara, and oro have all been killed.
2)  Kisame is undoubtedly a curious character.  My belief is that he will not change sides so quickly.  He is not as sharp as itachi or madara and even though he seems to have had problems with madara in the past, he is very well content with causing as much chaos and destruction as possible.  Notice how he is a shark, and thus enjoys being the predator rather than the prey.  He is also very confusing in that he had a great relationship with itachi, even considering him superior in all aspects. 
This may because the sharingan can control monsters (kisame), or because he was in for the plan of eventually stopping madara (who itachi and kisame could not take on there own especially with pein as madara’s bitch).  So kisame could be fitting to make the world more stable or he will join whatever side has the funest fight (much like Kenpachi, ironically, like kenpachi does not know the name of his sword, Kisame may only be able to use one element, which isn’t a problem with his strength). 
Whichever way kisame goes (and not in that meaning), he is a crapshoot with anyone’s guess as good as another’s.  A prime example of a random shot in the dark.
3)Pein will stay against Naruto because as long as there are multiple villages, there will be war.  He might go against madara though because he did “cry” when tobi/madara said “the true power of the sharingan”.  But he will definitely remain against Naruto, probably being the most dangerous enemy after saskue knocks off madara. At some point.
Info: I’m not even going to go and try with the Raikage and that shit, that is just so open ended I’ll just sit back and hopefully get to enjoy whatever kishi decides to do with it.
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~ by 火影 千手 iareawesomeness on December 15, 2008.

65 Responses to “Theory Post: Jiraiya, Ying/Yang, Madara, Akatsuki… you name it, its covered.”

  1. awesome!

  2. hey! i was the first!! wow!
    so, i don’t believe “that” jutsu was the rasengan…if it was, naruto wouldn’t be too surprised when kakashi told him to get “the rasengan” to the next level…and mostly kakashi wouldn’t be the one teaching him (or atleast making him train)…
    i don’t believe “that” jutsu was the space-time jutsu….fourth had(most probably) completed it! there is no meaning of learning that until it is his blood-line limit (which we know “is not” cuz it was said in the manga that “the fourth was feared for the space-time jutsu and that made him the “yellow flash”(or whatever) meaning (most probably) that fourth invented the jutsu just like how naruto made the rasen-shuriken)
    i think “that” jutsu is something related some other “totally unknown” jutsu which kishi has in store for a surprise twist in the plot!

  3. @alec: awesome fanfiction after the theories!!!:-)

  4. WOW! That was fun!

    Alec, if anything ever happens to Kishi (God forbid), I want to finish writing the series with you, huh? I call dibs. ;P~

  5. since ibiki is here….
    “why do you think that madara used hibernation jutsu?”
    i don’t say i support this one either but “no one in the naruto-universe has died of old age!” i believe Madara never got defeated by just the first and no-one has been able to defeat again
    besides “immortality” seems to be an easy catch for highly skilled ninjas…madara could be using that!

    orochimaru, kakuzu, hidan had found ways to do that! even the third was at around 80s when he fought orochimaru….and he was very strong too…if orochimaru hadn’t killed him, he would still be alive…at least, that’s what i believe ^_^

  6. @Microtube: I don’t claim Madara used hibernation jutsu, I run through some possible explanations for his long life. Hibernation or cryogenics or stasis (if you want to get all star trek) is one possibility for him being so damn spry at over 100.

    Sarutobi lived a long time and looked it. He still fought well in the end, but his back was bent his hair gray. Madara’s older and jumping around (as Tobi) like a 20-something. That requires an explanation; something big had to happen to keep his body young. He could have jumped across time. He could have Rip van Winkled his way into the current time. OR he could have possessed/used bodies to extend his own physical life. Maybe there are other ways…immortality. pfft.

    That’s like waving a magic wand and saying “Naruto wins, bad guys all die.” Oro spent his life chasing immortality and the only result was freakishness. And he was no jutsu slouch.

    People don’t die of old age in this world because doing battle for a living tends to kill you young and in action. There must be nothing worse than living to be old (and alone) as a shinobi. Unless you are a total and complete douche.

  7. @ibi and pain: the 1st and 2nd hokages died of old age i think

  8. @ Anon – I don’t think so. They looked pretty young in their coffins when resurrected by Oro.

    If Oro were to resurrect the 3rd he would look as we knew him not a younger version.

    So, I’m going to have to say that they died in battle. We may or may not ever find out how… There were more than a couple ninja wars though.

  9. @anon: your thoughts….crushed by jeremiah’s truth! lol…
    @ibiki: well, don’t go for the outer appearance….we still don’t know what tobi looks like from the outside(without the mask)…i also do recall that there was a picture showing “madara becoming the leader of the uchiha clan” (somewhere in the itachi and sasuke fight filler) there, madara was shown pretty young….if that’s correct, you can easily substract 20 yrs from his age….which makes him about the age of the third….
    p.s. jumping on the branches and running like fool has nothing to do with old age! he is using some jutsu…it’s not like human world where people suffer from insufficiency of power on aging!

  10. @Microtube: I’ve already answered this. Madara’s outward appearance and actions, given his age, needs explanation. This is true whether he is Sarutobi’s age or older. We all agree it isn’t possible without “using some jutsu.” The question at hand is what might that jutsu be.

    @Alec: I really like the idea that the 4th was sealed away in the Death God jutsu with the yin chakra. Been thinking something similar–which is (I believe) why Sarutobi crapped his pants when Oro started summoning coffins. I don’t think his fear was only about the 4th’s jutsu, or he would have gotten afraid facing two Hokages at once. That was about what kind of mystical shit storm was about to hit. I also think that’s why it failed–he was sealed away and inaccesible.

    Of course, I’ll be mega pissed if in the end Naruto gets reunited with daddy by rescuing him from the death god…blergh.

  11. The first Hokage was killed by Kakuzu, has he menions it in his fight with Kakashi.

  12. oro almost died of old age

  13. YAY!!! ITS UP!! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE haha

  14. dude Jeremiah that was everything that had built in my subconscious for months, in unaccessible until you gave me the key to unlock it all… half the shit i don’t even remember, i think i was writing so fast i went into a trance, and woke up with three pages worth of stuff, single spaced…

    that was a three months worse of unfiltered random thoughts thrown up at once and attempted to be turned into something other than last nights spaghetti

  15. ibi we’ll do it… i’ll come up with random ideas and you can try and translate them into something legible and understandable, and i’ll give you the credit because that would be a lot of freakin’ work

    yamamoto talks about light and dark hakra in the Naruto training, i have a feeling they are similar 316 09 for reference

  16. @ anon – Oro wasn’t dying of old age, he was dying because his body swaps only last 3 years and then he has to switch into a new body or die. Hence the reason he went down so quickly against Sasuke. People forget that. He waited for Oro to be near death before taking him out.

  17. ohh, Jeremiah, while your here, do you want your mule back?

  18. @renzy: your stuff about Oro is sheer genius. Yeah, where did he figure out about the body possession jutsu? Maybe Madara taught him.

  19. Yeah, Alec, ’cause I won’t work with rented livestock. ^.^

  20. @johndoe – Kakuzu did not kill the first Hokage. What he says is “Looking at your forehead protectors reminds me of the very first Konoha shinobi I fought, Shodai Hokage, that is.” He doesn’t say anything about killing him.

  21. First, let me just say how thrilled I was to see my thoughts used for this post – that is pure awesomeness!

    And since we’re on the topic of theories, the whole Naruto has a Kekkai Genkai thing is starting to bother me the more I think about it. Kekkai Genkai is a bloodline trait limited to families, and in many cases involves the two types of elemental chakra, right? Think of Haku (water/wind) and Yamato (water/earth). There are exceptions to this rule, but besides Kimmimaro, the other Kekkai Genkai we’ve seen all deal with ocular jutsu (Sharingan, Byakugan, Rinnegan, etc.)

    I’ve read a lot of people saying that Minato’s space/time jutsu is possibly Naruto’s Kekkai Genkai, but I really don’t think that’s the case because of (can’t you guess?) Madara. Since Madara set the nine-tailed fox on Konoha, he must have come face to face with Minato at some point. That being said, Minato would have used his space/time techniques against Madara, and with Madara’s Sharingan, I think he copied those techniques and improved them.

    Remember the fight against Madara around chapters 394-395? Every attack pass through him, which is most easily explained by copying Minato’s space/time jutsu. If it was truly a Kekkai Genkai, this would not be possible. I think Kishimoto was referring to Naruto and Minato’s ancestry when he used the word “bloodline” in the interviews, in which case we should be asking ourselves if Minato had a brother/sister who could be the one which joins Akatsuki (also stated in the interviews).

  22. the first theory has a little misunderstanding. yin and yang symbolizes good and evil. it is sometimes compared to masculinity and femininity. but in the manga it definitely points to the evilness and goodness of the chackra. which means that minato sealed the yin (which is the evil) because he want naruto have the yang (good) only. coz having the yin is also going bad.

  23. Actually, glen, as I understand it that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ dichotomy is a western misconception. Masculine/feminine, light/dark, aggressive/passive are all used to describe the sides. However, good/evil isn’t in the confucian view of the world. It’s assumed that one will be both at one time or another. The point of the symbol is to keep both elements in balance.

  24. you all getting it wrong men. yin is the bad side and yang is the good side. the theory post seen to mix it up. clear it up guys! we don’t want to let the others feed wrong info from us

  25. You beat me to it, Ibiki Teishi LOL

    I was just about to say it’s all two sides of the same coin, no matter what names you give them > heads/tails, male/female, good/evil, etc. I was only using masculine and feminine because they best fit the idea behind my theory.

  26. elfarren: =) BTW, the Madara as man behind the curtain…you rock.

    glen: it’s not good or bad. If you want to learn more about it, I suggest the I Ching, where the concept of yin and yang come from. Sky is yang, earth is yin. Mountains are yang, valleys are yin. The sun is yang and the moon is yin. Running water is yang, still water is yin. It’s not about good and evil at all, but opposing natural forces that govern the universe. It gets really complex, bringing in the path of the moon and the sun given the solstices and vernal and autumnal equinoxes and the 12 (Chinese) zodiac signs…but it doesn’t go to good and bad.

    The idea is that a yang (which you want to label good) action can be bad if delivered at the wrong time. The sun in the middle of the night would be a bad thing. The yin and yang symbol is about upright action–doing what is called for at the appropriate time.

    mkay…enough eastern religions geekitude outta me.

    Uh, and, I’m not a man. ^.^

  27. woah!!! you know, i’m an asian and we take a good look of the confucian perspective

  28. Hey, glen, I’m not trying to put you down or pick a fight. I’ve studied/read much of the I Ching and studied the Tao. I’m not just talking out my ass here, but I sure didn’t mean to insult you. I’m sorry if I offended you.

  29. me too. oh well, maybe well just know sooner or later from kishi himself. sorry

  30. too much too read..so wont read lol. Though I read mostly Ibiki looks good.

  31. Alec’s theory is absolutely great !!!!

  32. Ugh i made this post last night but it seems to have lost it for some reason…

    About Madara’s Immortality – This has always seemed pretty obvious to me as Itachi lays it out pretty well imo. Starting on:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/02/
    and going through page 11 of that issue. Itachi flat out says that Madara is the only one that has unlocked the “final secret” of the Sharingan and that controlling the 9 tails isn’t the it. Itachi then talks about how Madara gained his “Inextinguishable Light” and i think that means more than just the eyes themselves.. I think he is referring to immortality also. Itachi even goes further to say that he is the only one who can surpass Madara and achieve true immortality is him and he’s referring to taking Sasuke’s eyes to do this. All of this says to me that the taking of the younger brother’s eyes unlock immortality or atleast the ability to achieve it if u can figure it out.

    @johndoe – I don’t believe that Kakuza killed the 1st, I’m sure the chat ur referring to is from:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/336/03/ and 4
    He says that he fought the 1st, not that he killed him.

    About the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Hokage – I’m not convinced either way as to how the 1st and 2nd died whether it was killed or old age. Though one thing that interested me a couple of days back as i was rewatching old anime and rereading manga… It looks like the 1st and 2nd were still pretty damn young when they named Sarutobi the 3rd hokage. Even Sarutobi looks like he’s a teenager… I’m referring to:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/14/ The episode from the anime is like 73ish I can’t recall exactly.

    So, why would they pass the title over to a teenager? I mean, was Sarutobi already stronger than the 2 of them at that age? Were they just tired of doing it and wanted to retire to a more simple life?
    Another thing that has always interested me is why would u have 2 hokages at the same time? Both the 1st and 2nd ruled at the same time. It never really made much since to me and i can’t recall them every explaining why. On that note… Since there has been 2 hokages at the same time, doesn’t it seem possible that Naruto and Kono/kakashi/Tsunade(who ever is alive lol) could do the same? I mean if all goes down like it’s looking the village is going to be in a bad state and might need the leadership of 2.

  33. @ bendercu – awesome comment! There was never two Hokage’s at the same time though. It just seemed that way but in reality the first was suceeded by his brother the 2nd. They didn’t just give the Sarutobi the title of Hokage, he had to fight Danzo for it and defeated him. The title of Hokage is supposed to be given to the strongest member of of the clan, nobody has to die or anything like that. Sarutobi was considered a genius and the strongest hokage ever in his prime. But the fourth came along and he was the strongest so he became hokage and then he died and the Sarutobi was the strongest again.

    The first and second died young. When they were resurrected by Oro they looked young at the very least, for sure didn’t die of old age. When Oro uses the resurrect jutsu, it doesn’t go back in time, it just reanimates the dead bodies.

  34. Actually, elfarren… Space time could be kekkai genkai, but in all likely hood is not because of the need for scrolls in order to use it… Madara’s jutsu is different in that the fourth used the marks as a summon device, madara uses his sharingan much in the same way kakashi does in that instead of summoning himself to the place, he puts himself into another dimension temporarily (which is why we have said that madara and kakashi’s sharingans are some how related i.e, obito’s).

    he has yet to reveal anything yet and there is no fucking way he spent three years with jiraya and didn’t learn shit (besides odama rasengan) considering he learned summoning and rasengan in like two months total, and he learned fuuton rasengan in like one week… Jiraya is incredibly strict and demanding…most likely most of the jutsu naruto learned he had to rely on some of the fox’s energy, which he said he wouldn’t use after the four tails incident (plus he was completely wiped out after he went four tails and wasn’t able to do anything against saskue)… similar to ichigo learning to use the hollow for you bleach fans…

    plus naruto has that “dam it” attitude that we all know and love which enables him to learn jutsus faster than an uchiha on crack standing next to a scroll of every forbidden jutsu known to man, and several known to monkies (it’s a Fairly Oddparents joke, not a sarutobi joke)…the fuuton is only the tip of the iceberg of strange and wierd things naruto is going to start showing, especially if he fights pain in the next few issues and then we get to learn more about the rinnegan as well…

  35. there were three ninja wars. The first was before the villages were formed, the second has yet to be explained and the third is when we see kakashi, obito, and co. The first has yet to be explained in his death, the second doesn’t even have a name so forget about that. The thing is that they had baisically picked sarutobi to be the third when he was like 10 years old (probably because the ninja war was going on and they figured they’d die soon).

    The kekkai genkai can mean just about anything, there are two jutsu mixes (ice, and wood), there is the three dou jutsu’s and then there is the bone growing thing and even ukon’s cell synthesis thing is considered a kekkai genkai… so naruto can have some we haven’t seen yet… though i’m still against the idea of a kekkai genkai for him, caln techniques i’d be cool with but a kekkai genkai is something i’m not for…

  36. As to the other stuff discussed above, I wouldn’t rule out Naruto’s Kekkai Genkai coming from his mother Uzumaki Kushina, who was from the Whirlpool village…

    Naruto’s second element could possibly be water because of this.

    Water and wind = hurricane chronicles. See the connection?

    Just a thought that has been brought up on this site before, back in the day hashing thoughts out with LastScorpion.

    As for Kakuzu killing the Shodai hokage here is what I already knew but the Narutopedia says it best:

    Kakuzu-As an elite ninja from Takigakure (the Village Hidden among Waterfalls), Kakuzu took on a mission to assassinate the First Hokage. This mission, however, ended in failure before the might of the First Hokage’s Mokuton jutsu. Despite the insurmountable danger faced in the mission, what awaited his return to his village was the stigma and harsh punishment associated with failure of his objective. In response to this treatment, a wrong levied against a shinobi who had put life and limb on the line for his village, Kakuzu came to hold a violent hatred as he escaped from imprisonment. In his flight from the village, Kakuzu killed the village elders, took their hearts, and fled with knowledge of the village’s most prized forbidden techniques.

    Narutopedia

  37. …And now the waterfall village is pathetic shell of its former self which needed genin naruto and saskue to come in and save it…

  38. @Jeremiah – I could have swore i remember reading/watching something that said the 1st and 2nd were in power at the same time, but i of course can’t remember where lol. I’d always assumed they died young, but never really thought they’d be killed specially after reading about how Madara talked about the 1st. Maybe they got sick like Itachi. This chapter shows both the 1st and 2nd together teaching Sarutobi and i’m assuming the elders:
    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/15/
    I suppose that it doesn’t mean that they were both hokage, the 1st could have stepped down when his brother became stronger. Also, on the next page it shows the team that Jiraiya trained including Minato, i wonder who the other 2 are in that team…

    I do remember reading about Danzo challenging Sarutobi for the title of hokage, but i could have sworn it was after Sarutobi was already the 3rd.

  39. @Jeremiah – I’d like to know where that information is quoted from, i mean not that i don’t believe it cause it sounds very probable. Could it be from some source book or something, cause i def dont recall anything close to that in the manga or anime.

  40. FortIETH!!!

    God Damn, Those are some incredible theories, Hatsoff to you guys!

  41. @ bedercu – click the Narutopedia link that I set at the bottom of the qoute.

  42. @Jeremiah – Oh i saw the link, but there is no references in the the entire article. That’s what i meant where it was quoted from, usually on the Narutopedia/wikipedia there is a list of references that list what source the person that wrote the article is quoting. that one has known. Just wish it was listed so i could go read w/e is being sourced! ^^

  43. known = none* lol

  44. It’s like when I qoute my own post 3 rules of manga as law = known*

    LMAO! ^_^

    *3 Rules

  45. wow, apparently i got kicked out at one point during my last two commetns (thus anoynymus is me)

  46. To Anonymous and Jeremiah: I’m not trying to say Naruto can’t or doesn’t have a Kekkai Genkai, only that I find it implausible for that KG to be Minato’s space/time justsu. In the fight I referenced above (chapters 394-395), Kakashi even wonders if Madara copied Minato’s techniques, lending further proof that the space/time jutsu can be learned. My boyfriend kept interrupting me while I tried to write that post, which is probably why I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. LOL I’m even more interested to know about Naruto’s mom now, though, after your comment that we should look at her for the bloodline limit.

    Ibiki Teishi: Thank you =) After I wrote in those theories, I came up with more reasons Madara is like “the man behind the curtain”. The only ones I can remember right now, though, are that Madara is responsible for pitting Sasuke against Konoha in the current timeline, and that he is the leader/founder of Akatsuki. Whatever his real plans are, he certainly has the most control over what’s going on out of all the characters in Naruto.

  47. I dont recall, Madara ever using his sharingan to teleport..otherwise others would have noticed (aka Naruto & co when they fought him)…

    It was only at the end was it revealed that Madara had the sharingan.

    In any case I dont think Minato bloodline is teleportation – I just think its a jutsu he develpoed because it is dependent on the kunai.

    Now bloodline to me, something got to do with rapid healing..Because Naruto is able to heal real quick and Yamato says it not becuase of the Kyuubi chakra…hence it must be Naruto own..

  48. @losers, i think thats the final secret of sharingan. you’ll need no mangekyu or special formation of the tomoes of the sharingan to teleport.

  49. If you look at issue 395 then you’ll know that that what ever Madara is doing is not a normal jutsu because Kakashi can’t copy it with his Sharingan or even understand what he is doing…

    So if Kakashi can’t copy it then it might be a bloodline technique Madara is using…

    But Madara is an Uchiha so his Sharingan is his bloodline…

    Well what if the final stage of the Sharingan can copy bloodline techniques, the one move no other Uchiha could copy?

    So what if the space time jutsu was copied from Minato by Madara who has unlocked the last stage of the Sharingan but Kakashi has not so he can’t copy what Madara is doing…

    Just a thought after rereading 395.

    P.S. Madara acts so damn goofy in that issue which totally lends to the multiple Tobi’s theory cause he’s so deadly serious with Sasuke… unless old age has just makes him senile ^_^

  50. than naturally it is safe to say he has also copied the rinnegan, holding the ultimate ms is to copy bloodline techniques as well… which i highly doubt but would make him the ultimate villian (and better than kakashi, *gasp!!)

  51. Elfarren exactly what i was saying, though i like to confuse people and present both sides to an argument… that a kekkai genkai doesn’t involve summon marks…

    losers- it is possible considering that Kakashi’s ms uses time-space, so naturally if there sharingan’s were somehow related, than it is safe to say that madara jsut uses it on himslef to avoid being hit…

  52. I wonder if the Rinnegan is special though, considering they are the eye’s of the sage of six paths which goes back before Sharingan.

  53. Jeremiah: For the sake of playing devil’s advocate, keep in mind that Kakashi couldn’t see Madara under all those bugs, hence why he couldn’t copy or figure out the jutsu Madara is using. He has to keep asking Hinata and Shino for updates on what’s going on once Shino covers Madara with his bugs is why I say this. That’s not to say your other theory that the last stage of MS can copy anything (including KG) isn’t true, but in that case I’d argue why did Kishimoto create the Rinnegan (which does almost exactly that) if he could have just made it a Sharingan ability? In the same vein, what are the true origins of Rinnegan that make it the ultimate ocular jutsu/Kekkai Genkai? Like Sharingan originated from Byakugan, perhaps it is the same with Byakugan deriving from Rinnegan. Hmmm …..

    Losers: There is a distinction between teleporting and using space/time jutsu, which Shino explains in 395. If you go back and read the chapter again, you’ll see that Kishimoto nixes that theory entirely. As for Madara using space/time jutsu, even Kakashi can only make assumptions about whether or not that is what Madara is doing. He thinks it’s impossible to be that advanced, but the key word is THINKS 😉

    Alec: We both enjoy playing devil’s advocate, methinks LOL

  54. But his eyes can only see chakra and memorize seals. If madara isnt making any seals, he can’t copy anything. Besides, I think the claims made that the sharingan can copy everything are overblown. things like physical reconstitution and the like, that don’t use seals, I believe you still have to learn the old hard way. And they still seem bound by the same limits on say nature manipulation as everyone else. That leaves a lot of room for the rinnengan to be an improvement.
    And to whoever said that whole obito-tobi thing can’t be eliminated just solely on cannon: 1. the “pins” everyone claims are in his one arm are on both arms… and they aren’t pins in his arm they are part of the armor he is wearing. I don’t know who first made that claim, but it was based on a bad interpretation of one of the pannels where you could only see one of his arms. 2. Obito was a lousy ninja, so the idea that now being a one-eyed cripple with 1/2 a body that he could come to the point that he surpasses kakashi is just silly. 3. The mizukage was a grown man, not a little boy. so if he was kakashis age he would have been a newly crippled teenager when he was the leader of a ninja village. So I think it’s pretty safe to say that there is absolutely no merrit to that idea what so ever.

    I thought the final secret of the sharingan was how to cure the blindness and make one that would never fade? That or controlling the demon fox… when he was under the bugs, granted tobi could have used a technique similar to kakashis, so that I will admit is a posibility

  55. milo, you have not falsified the theory, you have taken fact to support an opinion.

    1. The Tobito theory does not hinge on pins, nor did I mention any. Your use of canon does not falsify the theory.

    2. The Tobito theory *I* claim cannot be eliminated asserts that somehow Madara has taken Obito’s body–how much of either of them is there at any given time, we cannot claim to know. Saying (which is your opinion, not canon, BTW) that Obito was a crap ninja does not prevent Madara from being the guiding force in Obito’s shell. As for silly…what can be sillier than a 100+ year old man jumping around and cracking jokes the way Tobi does. Manga is silly and your assertion is illogical.

    3. First, are you sure of the time lines on that? Second, if Madara is able to use a young body for a host, could he not also use an older body? Third, did anyone see his face as Misukage–aside from Kisame? Do you have canon proof of that?

    Once again, canon fails to falisify the theory, although you have expressed some strong opinions based in canon, there is not enough evidence to entirely refute the theory.

  56. @renzy i seriously doubt that jutsu was to dispel the sharingan, it is true that jiraiya is a sannin susceptible to genjutsu and would there for have taken countermeasures against the most elite of an illusionist’s techniques, naruto was unable to restrain himself against oro, and i therefore believe that be would have used that jutsu to dispel itachi’s illusion which was not even a doujutsu, forget about tsukuyomi.

  57. again kishi has failed to clearly explin what the final secret of the sharingan is it could be: eternal light, you go blind from ms lvl 1, you get to control the nine-tails fox, amongst other things ….

    teleportaion is the high speed transfer of objects (in reality it would involve breaking your body into electrons and protons, calculating the info and beaming it at the speed of light to another station than based on the information, reorganizing your entire body according to that) that never leaves the dimension you’re in…. space time jutsu isthe leaving of this dimension and coming back in at a certain point much like in Back to the Future… thus giving the appearence of moving at the speed of light, yet in reality you could have taken two steps to get to the end of the universe (thus appearing to be faster than the speed of light)… Which is why shino said the bugs would have follwed becasue they track chakra, if he had stayed in this dimension they would have followed the trail of chakra, but he left the dimension, thus losing him entirely…

  58. I wonder if Itachi gave Naruto the key to unlocking the fox’s other half since Alec thinks that the 4th was involved with Itachi in the end….hmmm…

  59. My first comment here and im gonna put my two cents on this one.

    Regarding the KG – space time jutsu – teleportation:

    Minato has no KG involving space time jutsu. It’s just some form of reverse summon and summon in link with the Kunai, which he actually explained on Gaiden. That could be the explanation why the marks in the kunai resembles the frogs seals on the scroll and the frogs reverse summon and summon skills shown on 429 and some 420+ episodes. I think its some jutsu that Minato learned and developed in time, not a KG. In the other hand I think it has nothing to do with the teleportation jutsu of Madara wich i think its not a KG and was gained among other things when he achieved the final MS.

    Regarding Pain vs Naruto fight:

    I think Naruto will beat God Pain and all other physical forms of Pain but Nagato will not be beat. Why?, cuz Nagato in this time doesnt really exist. I think the info that all Pains are just dead bodies that “Nagato” controls from somewhere its pretty much the standard that 428-429 left.

    Regarding Nagato:

    The other thing is I dont think Nagato as a kid and as ever really controlled the powers of the Rinnegan. He just seized its advantages in jutsu learning and chakra capacity. I think the Rinnegan just represents the spirit of the Sage in a human vessel (Nagato) just like Naruto and the Kiuby. Also I think that Nagato stopped being Nagato in some point (prolly many years) after he achieved the Rinnegan. One event (prolly Yahiko’s death) triggered something (like when Naruto went 4 tails on Oro) and the Sage took over Nagato’s for good. That could be the explanation why God Pain (the main voice behind Nagato) talks more like a God (or like the Sage) than a human or even Nagato in his young years. I think we will never see Nagato’s real form cuz its not even a real form now.

    Regarding Madara:

    There’s an obvious relation between Madara and the Sage of the Six Paths. I think Madara made a pact with the Sage, and he waited on another dimension till the Rinnegan was putted in place on a specific host and then he needed a way to get to Nagato and more specifically to the Rinnegan to achieve an ultimate doujutsu. I think the pact with the Sage involved some kind of sacrifices to be made and that’s when the hunting of bijus started. The Sage needs the bijus as sacrifice and Madara needs them to get the Rinnegan and fuse it with his final MS.

    The real problem with Madara in all this time he was out the pic is that he didnt had a physical form and he needed one to “confuse and control” things from the “outside”. I think Tobi’s name has nothing to do with Obito, just a sucker-catcher. Whether the physical form is indeed the Mizukage or he just stole Mizukage’s identity with some kind of replacement technique and he is really another person (even Obito) it doesn’t really matter cuz in the bottom line is just a temporary vessel. And that’s where Sasuke comes. You have watched how Madara has followed Sasuke’s development just like Oro did when he wanted his body. I think Madara wants Sasuke to be his permanent body and that’s why he is so interested in getting Sasuke on his side.

    To end this just notice that Pain’s (Nagato, Sage) goals are always in tune with Madara’s past and present goals. Past goals of Madara were being the strongest nin, getting the ultimate power. The difference now is that he needs money as an incentive to gather ppl in an organization (Akatsuki) to do the work for him and hunt down the bijus to get the ultimate power. Who knows I might be just throwin dards to nowhere but it makes sense. We should ask Zetzu, I think he knows, as you see he’s always on Madara’s side, he was the first to know inside Akatsuki, he knows really well his skills, he was never sent to hunt down anything, we never knew if he even had a partner, i think we bearly see him with Pain and the others when they need to do the extraction of bijus and that’s it.

  60. naruto is probely goona get his but kicked agaaisnt pain cause hes out of sage mode

  61. how old is tobi/mandara uchia anyway?

  62. near101: character age time line is here this shows the approximate ages of the characters right now (Shippuuden).

    You may want to check this week’s spoiler…don’t be so sure he’s going to stay out of sage mode.

  63. @ibi your link died again 😛 haha

  64. wth?! fixing….cursing and fixing…

  65. shit son i just realized that was before i had a username…. creepy

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